Czuch: I thought it more of a case that she made Bush squirm, not many politicians like to be on the spot.

***Sometimes you misunderestimated me***


or is that a "Bushism" and only to be understood by americans?

Well after all that's been done, I'd still take Bush over gore and Kerry

Q: Do you want Obama to succeed

Yes 59%
No 41%

Charles Martel:

Well after all that's been done, I'd still take Bush over gore and Kerry


Uhmmm... can you give us a spread sheet to back that up please? ;)

Jim Dandy:

Do you want Obama to succeed


The thing with polls is they just dont really tell us anything.

What does success mean?

Its like asking if you like Bush..... when Bushs popularity was at all time lows it wasnt because we all hated him for the same reasons..... some of us hated him because he lost some of his conservative ways, which you would think would make liberals like him a bit more, but liberals hate him so much that even when he acted like a liber they wouldnt admit to liking him!!!

Czuch: It doesn't sound that complicated.To succeed is to do well for the country,I'm a little shocked that so many Fox viewers hope Obama does not right the ship.Now if it was asking "Do you approve of Obama?" that would be a different story,and different stats I would think coming from Fox

Jim Dandy:

I'm a little shocked that so many Fox viewers hope Obama does not right the ship.

See, thats the problem..... you see "succeed" as righting the ship

But my guess is that out of those 44% who dont want Obama to succeed they have different views of what success means.

Since Obama was the most liberal senator, my guess is that conservatives look at Success for Obama to mean that he succeeds in making this country more socialist, or more liberal in nature!

So if you are a conservative of course you would not want to see him succeed at making this country more liberal in nature, right?

Czuch: For a President to "succeed" he would be doing well.Hannity himself says he hopes Obama "succeeds" There is no way Fox would get a 59% Yes vote if it meant his agenda

I have been wondering.... Obama wants to spend our way our of this recession, and I havent heard any libs complaining about this plan, but I have often heard liberals complain about "trickle down economics", a staple of conservative policy....

But isnt this proposed government spending spree really just a form of trickle down economic policy?

I havent thought this through yet, and its not anything I have heard anywhere, just a thought I had recently, that I would like to discuss and explore a bit...

Czuch: I'd rather explore the 41% of Fox viewers who wish your President to not succeed

Jim Dandy:

There is no way Fox would get a 59% Yes vote if it meant his agenda

You might be surprised... I think even conservatives are not happy with the economic direction of the country right now, and if that is what is meant by "succeed" then I am sure thats what these conservatives who want him to succeed are talking about?

Like my latest posts suggests.... spending our way out of this mess might work in the short term, and would be more favorable to conservatives than lets say, giving all the poor people 5k or something like that...


Like I started out saying.... these polls are no good because they are not specific enough, and what what seems obvious to you what is meant by "succees" others have a complety different idea of what it means!

Artful Dodger: The question was phrased as I stated it.I was a little surprised by the results.Has "party" surpassed "country" ?

Jim Dandy:

I'd rather explore the 41% of Fox viewers who wish your President to not succeed

Thats what I am trying to explain to you.... maybe they dont want him to succeed at making our country more socialized, i would be one of those people too!

Jim Dandy:

Has "party" surpassed "country" ?

hahaha.. I would say that was the case with Bush haters and Iraq!!!

Czuch:
Artful Dodger: Guys, it was a simple question,you and I both know Obama isn't getting the support of 59% of Fox viewers towards a liberal agenda,it's success or failure as President they were knowingly voting for.

Jim Dandy:

I think you are wrong, I think maybe the 59% were voting with that in mind, but my guess is that of the 40%, they had other things in mind....


my example of bushs popularity.... some people were against him because of Iraq others like myself were against him because he was too much like a democrat, same poll same results but completely different stories.

Jim Dandy:

Also, I wouldnt be surprised if way more than 44% of democrats wanted the Bush presidency to fail, so dont try to put this "party before country" idea all on conservatives either!

Czuch: Spin away

Czuch: I would hope Fox does not reflect all conservatives

Jim Dandy:

Spin away

I think you are doing a spin of your own, making it sound like 44% of the people in this poll are putting party before country by hoping that Obama fails, right?

Czuch: It was a simple question,the results speak for themselves.I have seen vague poll question before,this isn't one of them

Jim Dandy:

So, to be clear then, you are interpreting the results to say that 44% of the respondents in this poll want the "Obama Presidency" to be an overall failure?

If this is true, I would think that most of those 44% are conservatives who want Obama to fail at implementing liberal policies that makes our country lean more in an overall liberal way!

Czuch: the figures were 59% and 41%
This was Fox viewer poll,not a national poll.
The question was not "do you want Obama to succeed in implementing a liberal agenda and policies"

but if it was,59% of Fox viewers apparently would,and you know that's a stretch

Jim Dandy:

Dont make it so difficult then.... tell me exactly what you think the results mean? You seem to think it is not vague or unobvious, I think it has different interpretations...

Jim Dandy:

"do you want Obama to succeed in implementing a liberal agenda and policies"

You cant see that as being considered a success for Obama?

Tell me what you mean and then I can respond better

Jim Dandy: It seems very vague to me. How can you possibly get into the heads of the people who voted in the poll and know how they interpreted the question? As has been shown in this conversation, there are different ways of taking the question.

rod03801:

Thanks Rod, i thought I was losing my mind here....

I think Jim believes that I am just trying to spin things and that it should be obvious to me what is meant here, but I truly dont think it was!

Czuch: I'm no genius,but it seems to me that 59% wish to see Obama achieve a successful
Presidency( on whatever scale successful Presidents are judged in a bi partisian way)

and the 41% wish to see his Presidency not be a success(on whatever scale unsuccessful Presidents are judged in a bi partisian way

Jim Dandy:

on whatever scale unsuccessful Presidents are judged in a bi partisian way

I would say that a bipartisan assessment of a presidents success would be based on how well they were able to implement their policies?

Again, since this poll was Fox news people, many/most are conservatives, or at least a very high majority of those who responded that they didnt want him to be successful, and those people could merely be saying they want Obama to fail in the implementation of his policies, based on the fact that they already disagree with the basic concept of his policies based on the fact that he is a liberal and they are conservatives!

Jim Dandy:

Half of the country did not vote for Obama because they do not believe that the implementation of liberal policies will be good for the country!

Therefore, some people could be hoping they are wrong, and that his policies will work...?

Czuch: i think I need to change this to "I have a question?" Since I forgot there arent any liberals in here, just conservatives and smart independents who always vote their conscience and make up their opinions on a case by case basis, yet vote for democrats 99% of the time, heheheh....


Anywho.... back to the point.... anyone else see the irony in Obamas "spend our way out of recession" policy? Sounds a bit like the trickle down economics to me? Havent we heard so much about how trickle down economics doesnt work? Is that only when it is a conservative doing it?

Czuch: I think even the partisan Fox viewers(or almost 60% of them) know it would be best for everyone if Obama is a success from every perspective.Why shoot yourselves in the foot?

Jim Dandy: Well you obviously dont understand our politics..... its not like we all have the same ideals and goals, and its just a matter of the best man for the job...

There are people who think abortion is murder and some who dont. There are some who think being gay is normal, some who think it is deviant, there are some who think a free market economy with few government regulations is best, others disagree....

When a liberal is successful at implementing their agenda, it goes against most everything that a conservative believes is right, and visa versa... its a constant tug and pull process... Hoping Obama fails in implimentation of some of his policies for a conservative is not shooting ourselves in the foot, as much as it would be a victory!

Czuch: I imagine that if all these people of different backgrounds and beliefs were passangers in the same airplane,they'd be united in wishing the pilot(Obama) a successful flight.

Jim Dandy:

Okay already.... yes, we all (large majority) want Obama to have a successful presidency!


All I am trying to say to you is the 41% in the poll were probably not saying what you were implying them to say! We all define success in different ways! If Obama made gay marriage legal in all states, some would mark that as a success that they could be happy with and others would see it as a success they would not be happy about, and in that context, there are many who would say they want Obama to not be successful!

Artful Dodger: Well,I do remember during the debates I saw many polls that were completely reversed in the Fox tally,how do the Liberals factor into those results?

Artful Dodger:

I would guess there arent too many liberals who took that poll that would be part of the 41%, but of that 41% there are plenty who responded that way who are not putting party before country, it doesnt have to be one or the other, and that is where Jim seems to miss the point here?

Czuch: as long as Obama isn't misunderestimated

Czuch: Personally I think there is a hrdcore number of both Democrats and Republicans who wish the other side to fail no matter what they accomplish.We are speaking of a Fox poll in this example,but my point would be made just as strongly if it was an MSNBC poll.Fox/MSNBC attract the hardcore of either side of the fence,thus the results.I must say I was a little surprised the number was as high as 41%,I would have expected around 25 or so

Jim Dandy: I totally agree.... but they dont want them to fail simply to say I told you so, and get elected the next time, they truly believe his success (in implementing certain policies) would be Americas failure...


I can only say the same thing so many different ways for you.... but that poll represents so many different people with different ideals and different meanings for success and failure...

but since the poll likely includes more than 50% conservatives, I guess that many of the people who wanted him to succeed were conservatives but also many of them who want him to fail only said so because they believe his policies would mean bad things for this country, not that they wanted him to fail for the sake of failures sake.

Czuch:
Artful Dodger: Well,than I suppose no poll can ever be taken at face value,cuz that poll seemed pretty straight forward.

Artful Dodger: trusted by whom? was a poll taken

Jim Dandy:

Well,than I suppose no poll can ever be taken at face value,cuz that poll seemed pretty straight forward.


unfortunatly that statement is too true!!!!

Like I said before... if I got a call asking about Bushs approval near the end of his Presidency I would have been one of the 93 percent who disapproved.... but that doesnt really tell you anything except that a lot of people disapprove of him!

But I would have said I didnt approve of him because he had become a liberal, and a liberal might have not approved because of the Iraq war....

my very liberal brother would call me and say something like "look Bushd aproval is down by 93%, or whatever, and ask me what i thought about my guy now, how could I still favor him?

and he couldnt understand how I could still support Bush even though I was one who responded they didnt approve of him right now? I would be, because he has lost his conservative ways... and I could understand why his approval of bush hadnt improved, since now Bush was more of a liberal than before?....


Thing is Bush haters wouldnt even give him any credit when he did something they would normally approve of!!!

Poor guy couldnt win no matter what he did!!! Thats one reason I was so disappointed when he tried so hard sometimes to reach across the isle and be more liberal in policies, because liberals are all talk when it comes to reaching across the isle, they will never do it themselves, and they never really appreciate it when it happens for them!

Czuch: a spread sheet???

there is not a Liberal America, there is not a Conservative America. the is the United States of America....

well now according to the observations in here there is actually a Divided States of America...would that not be so?

Charles Martel: that was a job to me...indirectly

anastasia: *jab...sorry,highly medicated right now,lol

Bernice: We are united states, but as you can clearly see from our elections, we are currently a very divided America as well!

I think we are common in that we all (Majority/most of us) believe in freedom and democracy and all the trimmings that go with those.... but how exactly all that looks is where the differences come into play.

What is the specific role of the Federal Government? How much is too much how little is too little?

There are people at all points on the spectrum, and because we all get a vote, we tend to mostly stay somewhere in the middle, with slight ebbs and flows over longer periods of time.

In the long term, these differences are good for the country. What sucks is in the short term, when brother is against brother or some particularly polarizing event IE Iraq pops up, but overall it is a good thing having different views because we are fortunate enough to all believe in a system that is second to none!

anastasia: not so much a jab as an attempt to be funny....

what you got, and how come you arent sharing????