Just make an option to play 2 games (one with white and one with black) and add the points made in both games to decide who wins. If both players have the same amount of amount just call itt a draw.

Remco.

Just make an option two play 2 games (one with white and one with black) and add the points made in both games to decide who wins. If both players have the same amount of amount just call itt a draw.

Remco.

Thats why you deleted a game where I was black.. put the money where the mouth is..!!! ironically I majored in math in college! LOL

Yea, if White plays smartly (does not make first move in an area which can't grow into longer strings of pieces), then white should almost always have the advantage.

I would like to see a board setup where white does not have the advantage - as long as they make a smart first move - not blocked it - not next to an edge - in an "open" intersection where he can grow in multiply directions.

Daniel Snyder: 3, 5, 7, 9.

How random are the holes in numbers per games...
3, 5, 7 Is there a set max?

$10 on AbigailII ;)

Nothingness: Well, you are wrong, but there's no point in making this a 'yes', 'no' argument.

Go read a book about the mathematics of games.

yes holes have everything to do with it.. otherwise they would never have been put into the game. it makes the game more random. If for example White makes his first move into a place whre noo pts can be made black now has the the first move technically. ---- since there is no threat. so in this instance perfect play has everything to do with it. Tempo is the key. if you do not know what tempo means here it is, as basic as i can keep it. tempo means you have the intitiative, you can gain this away from white if one of these things happen the hole selection is not favorable to white and if black sarifices small 3pt moves to set up one 10 pt move. which is quite easy. hole placement is everything if it were an open game with no holes i'd agree white will always WIN or at least not ever lose. If black plays to mimic then balck cant win either.

Nothingness: Holes have nothing to with it. Ignoring the three to initiate somewhere else has nothing to do with it either. And I didn't say that with perfect play the first player wins. With perfect play, the first player cannot lose. Regardless of the arrangement of the holes.

What's essential is that all moves are always possible - that is, no move is required for a particular move (as with connect-4 for instance), nor do certain moves prohibit other moves (as for instance with chess). Furthermore, there's never a disadvantage of a move: a stone placed is <em>always</em> better than having no stone on that position. But that means that if there would be a strategy for the second player to win, the first player can adopt that strategy - by just playing a random first move, and then adopting the strategy that gives the win to the second player. Ergo, with perfect play, the second player cannot win.

i disagree due to the random placement of holes...this changes the game. allowing of a 3 connect you can ignore the 3 to ititiate somewhere else. in five line and connet 4 first move wins with first move and perfect play. not here.

Nothingness: I think white has a huge advantage - with perfect play, white cannot lose. Here's a proof.

Suppose a game is won for black (the second player) - that is, there is a strategy for black that always wins, regardless of how white plays. Then white starts by playing a random stone (this is never a disadvantage), and then adopting the strategy that wins the game for the second player. If that strategy requires placing a stone where white already had played a stone - white plays the stone at a random position. But that means white wins, contradicting the hypothesus that the game would be won for black. Ergo, there is no winning strategy for black if white doesn't make a mistake.

This 'proof' works for any game where placed stones don't move, and don't influence placement of other stones, and where having a stone at a certain position is never a hindrance. Examples outside PahTum include Five in Line, and Hex.

but on the other hand there is a definite advantage to white early on b/c no tricks have yet to be discovered so basically white is at an advantage, and many people will have slightly over rated ratings.. b/c they will only play white and not black. here is my suggestion ....i wish there was a way to not accept players into a ratings standing until they have played an equal amount with each color! lets say 13w/white and 12w/black..this will keep things honest.

i dont think white has as much advantage as you might think.. Its all about tempo. i can gain tempo by allowing my oppnent to get 3 straight.

A bid system would be cool - That is bid how many points you are willing to "give" your opponent so you can start with white.

Or make it standard - that is black automaticly gets X amount of points handicap to start.

Of course I have not played enough to know how much of an advantage it is.

But very cool game Fencer. Once game which I would not be afraid to say a "bigger board" version would be good. (10x10 maybe) - but we can wait awhile for that.

(or if you want to get real creative - a 3 player version with 3 colors of stones.)

BIG BAD WOLF: I think it's the same problem as with the classic Five in Line. But since this game is almost unknown, I am afraid nobody created a more balanced variant yet. It requires some experiments and analysis [which is what I have no time for].

BIG BAD WOLF: It's not hard to prove that with best play, black has at most a draw, so white showing an advantage in the statistics isn't quite a surprise. However, giving black a win in case of a draw might tilt the balance too much into blacks favour - although the current statistics show otherwise. A swap rule, or a bid for the right of going first might be possible too.

Looking at the Statistics, White has a pretty good advantage it looks like.

Would it make since to possible make draws count as a black win?