Thanks for all great ideas, I will definitely improve the payment description page. About representatives, why not? I can create a list of them and let them handle with their country people, no problem :-) It is worth trying.

I can't seem to get into any of my backgammon games..it happened yesterday too but only with one game...now it seems to be all of them...I couldn't even take any backgammon games off the waiting room games...can somebody tell me what to do please and thank you :)

Hey Rose perfect, so thats how your going to pay for our girly holiday!! hehee ;OD

No just kidding folks, everyone who knows Rose will vouch for her being honest and honerable and a safe person to help out

That's great Rose. Wonderful that you would be willing to put in the time and effort to help the site progress and also to help people who have the means to pay become members by maybe advising them or assisting them on their method of payment!

I'm now anxious for some feedback from Fencer and Liquid on this as I do feel it has potential to increase site revenue and volume of paid members!

Blaze

I think its a great idea to have a representative from every country or every major country.
I take Visa (have my own business) and would be more then willing to help out in that way.

Thanks for your response harley!

I believe your posting verifies some of the points I made in mine. The fact that it can be a challenge finding methods of payment. Well done for taking the time to actually look into the various options and also for your willingness to advise and assist other people in gaining membership!

If there were someone like yourself from every country where people are wanting to become members I feel this site would gain more and more paid members; clearly the problems vary from country to country. I believe there would be many British members willing to send you a postal order in lieu of your subscribing them through paypal so you may have your work cut out there! Lol. Needless to say it's great you support the site and are prepared to assist people in becoming paid members.

Would perhaps be beneficial to the site if Fencer selected a couple of representatives from each country (where members exist) in order to help people find ways of becoming paid members!

Blaze

Blazeinshore, I'd like to put a little in here in response.

When I first came to this site I was also daunted by the payments page. I had never bought anything online and only had a debit card. I asked Fencer for other options and after some discussion with him and other British members who have had this trouble, I decided my best bet would be to send cash through the post.

My debit card did not work on the online payment options, a money order is very expensive for us Brits to buy and I had no idea how to do a bank transfer to a foreign country.

I was advised by a friend to go to a main post office, where they exchange money with no extra cost like you get at travel agents.

I got $16 and put it in an envelope, and posted it! It was very easy, and didn't cost too much (it was my Christmas present from my boyfriend). I think it was around £10-£12. That was for 6 months rook membership.

Since then I have opened a paypal account and actually renewed my membership this morning. Its VERY easy to do. If you have a bank account. Even just a savings account would do. You can get those quite easily when you dont work.

Anybody who would like some advice on payment methods from the UK I would be very happy to discuss it with you. If you're not comfortable with sending cash abroad I could pay for you via paypal and you send me a postal order.
I spent a long time looking into the best ways to pay for myself and would be happy to share it with anyone who asks.

Firstly I must apologise for the length of this posting. It was difficult to say what I had to say without being a tad repetative; however I hope you will read through it nonetheless. It is probably the longest posting on the site so far :(

I would like to bring another side to this discussion and that is the fact that buying a membership may be complicated for some people; those who could afford it with some cutbacks but are nonetheless in difficult social situation.

There are many reasons I am putting this view forward and I realise there are a large number of members this doesn't apply to, but would just like rooks to have some comprehension of one of the reasons other people don't become paid members.

1. The SWREG page is complicated and quite daunting for someone who has never bought anything online and has no personal experience of this.

2. The implication is that payment has to be made by credit card even though that isn't apprently the case. Once you are on the SWREG page there is a PURCHASE button. I'm sure there are people who visit that page curious to know if they can pay by postal order or cheque yet worry that pressing the PURCHASE button commits them (via their membership number) when all they were doing was trying to find out the methods of payment to see if there is any possible way at all they can buy a membership (I'm talking about people without credit cards here). If they do press the button they are given 6 options...

a) CREDIT CARD online now (no processing fee except for Diners Club + 4%)
b) CREDIT CARD by FAX (+ $3.00 manual processing fee)
c) CREDIT CARD by PHONE (+ $3.00 manual processing fee)
d) PRO-FORMA INVOICE by CHECK or WIRE (+ $3.00 (check) or + $18.00 (wire) manual processing fee)
e) CHECK by US or UK checks or International Money Orders (+ $3.00 manual processing fee)
f) PAYPAL (+ $3.00 manual processing fee)

Well those options don't mean a thing to someone with no credit card or cheque account with a bank or to someone who has only ever dealt in cash and not through banks; also the SWREG page gets even scarier and asks for home details at the stage whereby some people have no comprehension of the various options and are reluctant to commit just yet!

Is 'check' the same thing as the british 'cheque'? If so, many people don't have a cheque book! And what is an 'international money order'? Is it the same thing as a postal order?

3. In reference again to point 2, the complexity of how to pay, I would make certain observations:

In the three + years I have been online, most of the British people I have known well online have been unemployed! These are the type of people very likely to be prepared to pay for a membership. They have so much time online and plenty of time for games. By 'unemployed' I don't mean through choice, so please don't advise that these people should simply 'get a job'. Some are disabled and off work due to illness, others have children or are at home in the role of 'carer' to someone elderly, yet still have substantial spare time for online activities and games sites.

In England it is very difficult to get a cheque account with a bank if you aren't working as your credit scoring is poor even if you have savings and no debts! It is also virtually impossible to get a credit card if you are unemployed and don't have a steady wage coming in, again because credit scoring is a factor. These are the people in my opinion who are most likely to be purchasing (or wanting to purchase) a membership, yet without a bank account or credit card, how easy is it to buy membership? It's not like these people can simply go to the local supermarket and buy a membership! So however good their intentions are, it may not be that easy if they have no access to finance in the way that working people do. I don't know if this applies predominantely to England or if there are other countries that are reluctant to give cheque book bank accounts to people on income support or the unemployed.

Many unemployed people in England do everything by cash, pay their bills by 'cash' in the post offices, buy weekly stamps from the post office for tv license, gas, electric, water rates etc etc and exist without a bank account! Is England behind the times or are banks just reluctant to risk giving credit to people who don't have a regular income?

I believe there are more people here who would become paid members if it were more simple to do so (unemployed people in particular, the people who benefit most from being able to play more games at a time).

I know there are people here who probably can't relate, but whilst it's easy for British people with no credit card or cheque account to pay general bills (including their ISP connection) at the post office, it isn't so easy to buy membership on a site like this when the general impression from the SWREG page is that you need credit card or cheque book bank account to become a member.

I agree with Dmitri that in most cases (though not all) there will always be something everyone can cut back on in order to afford a membership here. If someone is that desperate for a membership (and to some peope this site is a large part of their day to day routine and their only social life) they will find a way to pay even if it means putting by some money each week for a few weeks until the initial payment is saved. I also believe Dmitri is correct with his statement about cable tv and the other 5 points he mentioned (but only in the context of a single person whereby no decisions would impact on an entire family).

Maybe some people say they 'can't afford' to buy membership simply because it is complicated to buy membership without a credit card. How many people here with no access to credit card, cheque book or bank account would write in and ask if there is any other way to pay without feeling a little silly since they are probably in the minority. Most people would be too proud to admit they have no bank account, cheque book, or credit card. Unemployed people get criticised enough as it is. People are too quick to judge them for not working, and there could be so many reasons (illness, caring for children, caring for elderly parents etc etc) not just unwillingness to work.

I would ask you to read the above carefully so that there are no misunderstandings. I didn't post this to begin a flame war or to open an 'employed versus unemployed' debate! I am simply putting forward the 'paid versus non-paid' members debate from a different angle.

Though not realistically possible I am curious to know how many pawns without access to credit card or cheque book would buy a membership here if it was as simple as popping into a supermarket and buying it over the counter.

My point is that it isn't always about ability to pay as in financial means. Ability to pay can refer to methods of payment also.

I would challenge anyone with a sensible opinion on this to reply to this here, or perhaps move it over to the general chat board.



Solutions?

Fencer, is there a way you could create a page that says clearly and simply the different methods people can become paid members? Something much more simple and less daunting than the SWREG page perhaps but more detailed that the information on the How to Pay page? I appreciate option 3 is available for people who have no credit card or cheque account, but many people are unaware what a money order is. For example, would it be the equivalent of a british 'postal order' or does it refer to cash? I believe it would be helpful to have that information readily available in simple terms somewhere within the site (perhaps on the FAQ page where there is already some reference to payment) as some people may avoid writing to info@brainking.com for fear of appearing naive. I do however appreciate that this is more complicated due to the different countries people come from. The information will surely vary based upon where people are from, therefore needs to be fairly longwinded to cover all countries?

Again if there is a way that people with no bank account, cheque book, or credit card can buy a membership, please if at all possible, give reference to that, somewhere within the site! It would surely be helpful to make it possible for unemployed people or people from a lower social class (with no cheque book or credit card) to buy a membership if it is their wish to do so. Unemployed people, disabled people. carers of children or the elderly etc, are the people who DO have the time to play many games at once. In my opinion by appealing to these people and making it possible for them to buy a membership with ease, (ie making information simplified and readily available!) this site will gain many more paid members.

I really do feel strongly about this as statistics would perhaps show that it is the people who have MORE online time who would find it MORE DIFFICULT to pay (payment methods not just budget!).

People with credit cards are already paying. How about targeting the people without! :)

I think people are willing to pay and would like to do so if it were more clarified and easier to do so! Perhaps proof that this isn't about lack of finances is the fact that there are more rooks than knights. Once people have sorted out a payment method the issue becomes less about how much!

Blaze

Well, obviously basic items are revelent to income, most homeless people dont have internet let alone a BK membership so I cant see how cable TV fits in. When I say basic needs I'm talking about the average person on BK and lets not confuse basic needs with essential needs such as food.

You missed the reason I pointed out that its about choices, you said "anyone who has cable TV has no grounds for falsely claiming to not be able to afford a membership" and I'm pointing out if they choose to spend their money on say, cable, they may very well already be extended as far as they can justify....therefore CANNOT afford to subscribe, which you said is false.

I think everyone is trying to make positive suggestions here. Remember, more than half the world can't even afford the Internet, never mind these silly games.

Let's just keep throwing out positive suggestions to increase the number of members, and not worry about who's agreeing with whom.

Sure, it's a choice to be here. It's a decision that will be made by individuals who feel good about playing here and using the discussion boards.

We all agree, it would behoove the site to get more paying members. I'll likely become one myself, eventually. Since I've only been here two weeks, I'm not quite ready to pay up. To me, it's sort of like a magazine subscription. Not too hard on the wallet, but will I read it all year long? Will I have time for it? Those questions are still open.

TTJazzberry-- you said " I think its appalling to see anyone take such a better than thou attitude by suggesting they do without a basic item like cable TV in order to purchase a membership to satisfy ANY of its members"

You are grossly distorting my words, I have NO IDEA how you managed to attribute to me what you are saying I said. I never said ANYONE should do ANYTIHNG to satisfy ANYONE. where did you get that? i simply said that no one is do destitute that he cannot afford a membership UNLESS he isn;t wasteful in other areas! AND YOU AGREED WITH ME!

What I find especially disturbing is your reference to cable TV as a "BASIC" item.

This shows how patheticly papmered and lazy our society is, that cable TV is considered a basic item. Heaven forbid soemone not have 80 something channels to watch. Try telling someone who is starving that Cable TV is a basic item, I think he might disagree with you.

CLaiming that people who cannot afford a membership when they enjoy Cble television is a horrible insult to the hungry and homeless out there who TRULY cannot afford a membership.

Let;'s try to keep things in persepctive here!!!!!!

TTJazzberry! CALM DOWN! I am NOT judging anyone! In fact, YOU AND I AGREE! I am simply poitning out that people CAN afford a membership, THEY JUST CHOOSE TO DO OTHER TIHNGS with the money, like buy soda, cigarettes, go to movies, or buy cable TV. THAT IS ALL I AM SAYING!

Surely you agree there is a diffreence between "Not being able to afford" a membership and "choosing to do other things with disposable income".

Right? You said so yourself:

" If they cant afford it because they decided they want cable TV then thats thier business and their decision, its about personal choices."

EXACTLY! YOU AGREE WITH ME!

It isn't about not being able to afford it, it is about not WANTING to buy it in lieu of other more desirable LUXURIES. Please do not tell me that Sodas and cigarettes and cable TV are NOT luxuries, because they ARE. Necessities are food and clothes and rent and utilities, health and educational expenses. Junk food, cable TV cigarettes, and other such stuff are luxuries, and if people want those instead of a brain King membership, YOU ARE RIGHT, that is their choice-- The key word there is CHOICE! they CHOOSE to not have money for it because they spend it on other non-essentials.

Do you realize that we AGREE?

Thanks Brian, before what I said gets misinterpreted, I'm not talking about people who COMPLAIN that they cant afford membership and cry the blues about limited moves after. I'm addressing the comment that people who are simply "falsely claiming" that they cant afford it should reprioritise to satisfy anyones requests. If they cant afford it because they decided they want cable TV then thats thier business and their decision, its about personal choices.

Well said TTjazzberry. However everyone has made good points and I have said in my situation where I have lost my job, my home, and have no money to support myself, a membership of $2 a month is out of the question. Even if I started working today fulltime and started to pay off my debts and contributing in the home I am staying in, I still couldnt justify it as I cant even live on my own at the moment. The internet is my lone source of entertainment, interaction, news, and job search at the moment. Keep in mind though,this whole things is a what-if thing as Fencer has not said that he would change the brain pawn policies. However I am sure he has given it thought. If he has then I think we have given plenty of opinions to help make his decision. I think though this has started to get a little nasty and think we should move on before someone gets out of hand over this what-if situation.

Dmitri, you say this "HOW many of the people qwho CLAIM to not be abl to afford a membership DO HAVE cable TELEVISION!?? " and "anyone who has cable TV has no grounds for falsely claiming to not be able to afford a membership"

Cable T.V. is something the ENTIRE family can enjoy, simutaniously no less. Why should they do without something the whole family can enjoy so they can have a game site membership? I think it takes a very self rightious attitude to even suggest to those on limited income should do the following if they cannot afford a membership... "1) not smoke

2) not drink alcohol or soda

3) not buy ANY candy or sweets

4) Not eat out, EVER.

5) not go to a single movie or even rent one from the video store."

Who are we as members to have the gall to tell anyone what their priorities should be when they dont have a membership? There are alot of people who scrape by on very little and many reasons why they cant afford a membership here. I think its appalling to see anyone take such a better than thou attitude by suggesting they do without a basic item like cable TV in order to purchase a membership to satisfy ANY of its members. The last person who should judge the financially troubled is someone who cant relate to them.

Thank you lovelysharon, yes i remember now you have said it!!! ok, i will go ahead and do that :)

as i remember it chattytea ... you follow through as if purchasing for yourself and then somewhere there was a place for notes.. and that is where you would write a note as to whom the membership is for...

i have seen a post somewhere about purchasing a membership for someone.. but cannot seem to find it!(me being silly!) Please could someone please refresh my memory! as i wish to purchase one for my daughter... thank you

Bernice makes the opint that it is not really 2 dollars a day, but 12 dollars for 6 months, or something like that. OK, fine.

HOW many of the people qwho CLAIM to not be abl to afford a membership DO HAVE cable TELEVISION!??

ALmost EVERYONE I have ever mewt who complains about finbancial woes has cable TV. Casble TVcosts more per month than a brain King membership does for a year.

So, anyone who has cable TV has no grounds for falsely claiming to not be able to afford a membership. I like to play board games. COnsequently, I do have a membership, but I do NOT have cable TV

Is very easy to say....if you could pay it at $2 each month. It is finding the(for me anyway) Australian $50 for membership ALL AT ONCE that is difficult.
Besides...Im one of those people that moves on each game only once a day, because of the time differences...to become a member for that just isnt worth it :(
This subject is becoming boring anyway...it has gone on for 3 days now with about 100 postings and no solutions...lets change the subject????

If you look at the Player List sorted by join date, it's what you might expect, the longer a person is here, the more likely s/he is going to upgrade to non-pawn status. This is still quite a young site. With 200 members, starting last October, that's about 30 members per month, right? Of the people who joined during the first 3 months (last year), there is a higher percentage of members than the site average.

I would also expect that Fencer could do (or has done) a few database queries to see what the average number of moves a person of each level makes on this site. I would expect that most pawns make lots of moves when they get here, but only a few of them stick around and keep making lots of moves per day. My guess would be that 70-90% of the pawns just try the site for a while and then abandon it for the most part.

Of course, these are just guesses.

I like the current free evaluation system, and 20 games seems like a good limit. One thing that Fencer, et al., could possibly do is to target the pawns who are making lots of moves with a little stronger marketing campaign. It could be something as subtle as placing the "Support Us" link on a more prominent place on the page. If the site used advertisements, it could be "ad-free" for pawns up to a certain bandwidth, with more and more obnoxious ads filling the page as the bandwidth got higher. Of course, paying members would be ad-free no matter what.

Just a few ideas from a rather newbie to the site (who is getting quite hooked on it quickly).

The thing about limiting moves Pawns can make is if you're playing a game with them and you are a paying member. Like someone said - the game could last months or even years just because they have used up their moves for the day. So in a way, it's also punishing the paying members.

The whole reason I bought the matter up, is because I am a paying member (and believe me with the exchange rate when I joined it cost me closer to $80AUD) is the fact paying members are being disadvantaged by not being able to access the server at all times because of there is too much traffic. So what is the solution? For those of us who do not have all day to try and access a computer to find those times when the server is not overloaded and I am sure it is not just me, it is very offputting, especially when there are sites out there which do not have this problem. Limiting moves for non paying members seems a fair thing, after all they have not contributed any financial aid to keeping the site running. I understand some people say they cannot afford a membership, but they always seem to be able to afford their internet connection! Perhaps it is just paying the lump sum for a yearly connection which makes it more difficult? Would it help if there was an option for quarterly or even monthly memberships? Would this encourage more people to join? Or are a small % of people going to be the only ones to pay to keep this site running?

This has been outstanding exchange on a subject that hasn't really come up. However it is something to consider as this site grows. I really dont ask for anything from Fencer. I am satisified for way this site is. I am not asking for any more features or upgrades. I would like to see some new games like Battleship or Stratego, but I can play those at IYT if I so desire and I do keep at least one of each on going when there is inactivity here. This is a great site and lets keep it alive and strong.

thanks harley...I just didn't want to get to carried away with it anyway...so thanks...maybe a game sometime would be nice...you pick :)

Anyway, I'm not THAT strict!! LOL! I was joking with Bumble earlier, and the only time I've ever had to ask people not to post is when it starts with jokes or arguments... things that can carry on for a while over several pages that have NOTHING to do with BK. They really do belong in general chat. But they have been extremely few and far between and usually by people who didn't know GC was there and just needed pointing in the right direction!
But I've only ever deleted one message and wouldn't cut a debate short like this one. I'm no monster :oD honest!

Thats ok, Dakota, its about BrainKing and its future so is fine on this board.

I'm already happy with my membership and I don't need to go anywhere...I'm not going somewhere where my family isn't...I must say that Canada is more expensive than the US :) if you'd like to carry on go the the general chat...it doesn't really need to be on here :) sorry everybody :)

No, the exchange rate does not matter - i was just trying to show that because you have to pay more than $28 CAD doesn't mean it's more expensive in Canada than it is in US.
Limiting moves certainly is not a good idea - if you want to limit anything, limit games played at a time (I think).