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 Espionage

For all Espionage fans


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25. Janeiro 2010, 12:55:42
SL-Mark 
Assunto: Re: food for thought
Sandoz: But I don't need to capture your base to win, only all your pieces and as I am two pieces up at the start, easy game :) Perhaps we could try it, firstly sacrifice the unwanted pieces at the start so we are left with our chosen pieces, then game on!

25. Janeiro 2010, 12:49:08
Sandoz 
Assunto: Re: food for thought
SL-Mark: well, with your setup you would probabely loose our game, hehe

25. Janeiro 2010, 12:46:12
SL-Mark 
Assunto: Re: food for thought
Rule modification only applies if you think it a good addition.

25. Janeiro 2010, 12:44:29
SL-Mark 
Assunto: Re: food for thought
Sandoz: Thank you, just modified the rules though :)

I can't believe you would go for two bombs though :) In this case I would choose 2x5, 2x4, 2x3, 2x2, 2xRecon and game over :)

25. Janeiro 2010, 12:41:32
SL-Mark 
Assunto: Re: food for thought:
Chaos: As you don't have a recon, you won't know this, and Sandoz might have opted to barricade his hq with 2 bombs and dispensed with the 3s! :)
But yes, you are right, I ought to replace it with a 5.

Perhaps a minimum of 5 movable pieces must be chosen, and a general cannot be selected unless you have the one below it. So if you went for 5 pieces, you could choose 1x1, 1x2, 1x3, 1x4, 1x5, or perhaps 1xRecon, 1x1, 1x2, 1x3, 1x4 or even 1xRecon, 1xSab, 1x1, 1x2, 1x3.

25. Janeiro 2010, 12:40:05
Sandoz 
Assunto: food for thought
okay, Mark, here comes my real choice:
- hq
- 2xbomb
- 1xrecon
- 2x5er
- 2x4er
- 1x3er
- 1xsab

total: 10

25. Janeiro 2010, 12:26:58
Chaos 
Assunto: Re: food for thought:
SL-Mark: I don't see why you'd choose a sab instead of another 5?

25. Janeiro 2010, 12:05:09
SL-Mark 
Assunto: Re: food for thought:
Sandoz: If you chose only two pieces, I might guess that you have gone for 2x5 and your strategy is to blast through to my base. I would place my base and choose my pieces accordingly.
Probable outcome would be a draw?

25. Janeiro 2010, 11:27:00
SL-Mark 
Assunto: Re: food for thought:
Sandoz: Not knowing your selection, but only that you chose 6 pieces + hq, I might have chosen a recon, 1x5, 2x4, 1x3, 1xsab.

That would make an interesting battle :)

25. Janeiro 2010, 11:12:50
Sandoz 
Assunto: Re: food for thought:
SL-Mark:
To me this sounds like an interesting idea, Mark!
We first should check out if there will be a greater strategic variety for choosing pieces. It should not end up everybody choosing 2x5, 2x4, 2x3 and so on plus the hq as a default

25. Janeiro 2010, 11:07:44
SL-Mark 
Assunto: Re: food for thought:
happy hermit: Developing Eric's idea for a faster game, what about:

White places his/her pieces, but does not have to take the full compliment (base must always be placed). So they might choose to only play 5 pieces + base.

Black now places their choice of 5 pieces + base. They will know that they can only place 5 pieces, but won't know what white has chosen!

25. Janeiro 2010, 10:49:11
SL-Mark 
Assunto: Re: food for thought:
happy hermit: Have you tried small fast espionage? It is played on an 8x8 board. So just remove the bombs

Colours and graphics make no difference to me, they won't improve my game!

On IYT we had a prolonged debate on an extra piece. I think we decided for the cannon in end?

25. Janeiro 2010, 04:35:21
happy hermit 
Assunto: Re: food for thought:
Nothingness:
Perhaps an even smaller (faster) game on an 8x8 (or 8x10) board with no bombs.

24. Janeiro 2010, 10:40:02
Chaos 
Assunto: New features
Nothingness: I would love 4- player espionage: individual and/or 2 vs 2. The latter should be more easy to establish. 2 vs 2 means the game itself doesn't have to change, only the moves would have to be distributed in a different way.

 

I like the corner variant like we got at IYT.

 

I don't care much about colors.

24. Janeiro 2010, 02:10:54
Nothingness 
Assunto: food for thought:
I was wondering if perhaps it is time for a new version of espionage? Perhaps some suggestions as to what people would like to see. Fencer is very good at listening to his members and ALL users on his site. So if it is reasonable, I'm certain he would "consider" it or at least give it good thought... I think that New colors was suggested at one time.. I know we suggested it on IYT but it never materialized. Let hear some suggestions.

21. Janeiro 2010, 15:05:53
MTC 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Celticjim: Like I did in this move?: Open Fast Espionage (drjohnj vs. MTC) (his movable pieces on a3 and b3 at the move linked here)

I do realize it can difficult to follow an active game of Espionage being played by two other players, not being easily able tell which pieces are which, but if you do look through the several moves since he’s had only two pieces left, and otherwise think a little more about the situation, I think you’ll realize that the only winning strategy does require the following of the rule that is broken by this bug.

My thinking is this:
My opponent’s best moves, without following this rule, are to constantly move his pieces around in a tight square at b1–c2. The only way I can win if my opponent does this is to place one piece following his 2 until it can capture the HQ. With this bug, my opponent will be able to capture my piece whenever I try that.

I’ll consider messaging Fencer, but I would have expected the bug tracker to be the best place to report this to Fencer.

21. Janeiro 2010, 14:44:58
Celticjim 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
MTC: is it not possible for you to move 4 of your pieces next to his 2 and then when he takes one way you move the other,hope that's clear enough.I'm saying it may be possible for you to sneak past him anyway even tho your pieces are inferior
If not I would write Fencer a message

21. Janeiro 2010, 14:21:14
MTC 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Celticjim:The bug was used on my opponent’s move 76. He moved b4–b3, capturing one of my pieces after his piece had moved b3–b4 on the previous move.

Further information (I am not worried about my opponent knowing this information, there is no way he can use it to his advantage).
My opponent has 2 movable pieces left, either of which could capture any of my remaining movable pieces if given the chance.
None of my remaining movable pieces are capable of capturing either of my opponent’s movable pieces.
My opponent’s HQ is on a1, now protected by only one bomb on b1. I have no sappers left, so I can ultimately only approach the HQ from one square.
My HQ is protected all around it by bombs and my opponent has no sappers left.
The only way I can force a win is to get around his pieces and capture his HQ, the only way to do that (assuming perfect, legal play from my opponent) relies on my opponent not being able to move a piece back to where it just came from.

So if my opponent continues to be able to exploit this bug, I will not be able to win, but I would be able to if the rules are followed. Because of this, I will not play another move in this game either until Fencer intervenes, or until I am about to time out.

And in reply to your edit, if I could edit my previous post I would but, as a pawn, I cannot. My browser automatically converts it to a link anyway, but for the benefit of others, here is a link not surrounded by brackets: http://81.91.83.6/en/ReadBug?bgi=1995

21. Janeiro 2010, 13:40:11
Celticjim 
I've had a message from Fencer and basically he is saying that any issues will be sorted in the upcoming brainking upgrade as the game models are being rewritten.He didn't say when

21. Janeiro 2010, 13:17:50
Celticjim 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Modificado por Celticjim (21. Janeiro 2010, 13:20:22)
MTC: I had a late night and I'm just awake so gonna try and use that as an excuse as to why I can't get my head round that game MTC,can't quite figure out whats happening.Wait,so it's your turn and you have 6 moving pieces left?Or have they already reset the game and corrected the bug?

anyway this bug needs sorted.I'm gonna drop Fencer a message and see if he can give us some satisfaction

*edit* to say your brackets around the bug link have disabled it,leave a space between bracket and link and it will re-enable

20. Janeiro 2010, 15:07:40
MTC 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Celticjim: So has anyone else seen a true case of this bug potentially changing the outcome of a game?
Here’s one:
Open Fast Espionage (drjohnj vs. MTC)

The only winning strategy i can come up with in this game requires making use of the fact that my opponent’s pieces cannot move back to their previous squares. So if my opponent exploits this bug, I cannot win, and now he has done so.

I have reported this as another case of the bug (http://81.91.83.6/en/ReadBug?bgi=1995) and expect either:
1) The bug is fixed immediately and the illegal move reverted (unlikely but best option) or
2) The game is ended as a win for me due to my opponent’s illegal move (could be considered unfair on my opponent but I see this has been done before…).

20. Janeiro 2010, 11:15:52
Celticjim 
Assunto: Re: What must be done?
Dark Prince: after 5 years I'm gonna guess a LARGE bribe
obviously they're not that interested or just incapable

20. Janeiro 2010, 03:55:47
Dark Prince 
Assunto: What must be done?
To get them to fix the bug?

20. Janeiro 2010, 03:07:42
Celticjim 
Assunto: Re: correction
Dark Prince: move 54B--the exact move where the rule break occured???LOL

19. Janeiro 2010, 23:54:18
Dark Prince 
Assunto: correction
Dark Prince:
The link takes me to move # 54B

19. Janeiro 2010, 23:47:32
Dark Prince 
Assunto: Re: It was a question, not a criticism
Celticjim:
I have received achievements too.
The game reference link takes me to move 56. I didn't check previous moves until now for rule violations.
Move 54-55:
The 5 moves from h1-g1
then back from g1 to h1 next.
Stranger still, other moves were available to the 5 as it was not trapped by its own bombs.

19. Janeiro 2010, 23:11:55
Celticjim 
Assunto: Re: bug zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Modificado por Celticjim (19. Janeiro 2010, 23:16:52)
Dark Prince: I think you need to recheck the move numbers there mate.There was an occasion AFTER the rule break where his 5 did stay unmoved in the corner next to his HQ

*edit* you are partially right,there was another rule break when he had 2 pieces left that I didn't even notice.Go back further tho to when he had 3 pieces

as to why I let him take my sab
I was finished with it.I wanted to capture all the mines to get that achievement which I did.3 more to get the MASTER achievement that only aaru has so far---yeah a bit geeky but ya know I love the game

19. Janeiro 2010, 22:33:22
Dark Prince 
Assunto: Re: bug zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Celticjim:
In the game you referenced, it appears the rule held when your opponent had 3 remaining pieces.
i.e. moves 56-57
the 5 from h1-i1
5 not moved next turn
then with 2 remaining pieces
moves 58-59
5 from i1-h1
then h1-i1 on the following move
violating the rule.
On another note, why did you not move the sab to j1 having already ID'd the bombs on a2 and b2, but instead allow your opponent to capture your sab?

19. Janeiro 2010, 21:39:45
Sandoz 
Assunto: Re: bug zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Celticjim: undoubtedly this is a BIG BUG

19. Janeiro 2010, 21:14:22
Celticjim 
Assunto: bug zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Modificado por Celticjim (19. Janeiro 2010, 21:23:31)
looks like all instances of this reverse move bug are when the player has 5 or less pieces.Fencer indicated in 2005( http://brainking.com/en/ReadBug?bgi=526 ) that it was when the player was down to one piece and it would be fixed HA ...check my game though,opponent had 3 pieces left Open Fast Espionage (grillyx vs. Celticjim)

19. Janeiro 2010, 21:03:55
SL-Bosse 
Assunto: Open Fast Espionage - # 1- Final round
The final round of Open Fast Espionage - # 1 has started. It is "dmoresco" and "Thom27" who will fight for the victory.

19. Janeiro 2010, 20:19:00
Dark Prince 
Assunto: Addition on bug
"If you see that your opponent has been able to move a piece back to a square that it came from in the previous move, then write to us. We will back the game up and ask that your opponent make a different move."
The above is stated in the rules at the other site mentioned about the movement bug.

19. Janeiro 2010, 20:14:06
Dark Prince 
Assunto: bug
According to Espionage Rules:
"All mobile pieces can move one space horizontally or vertically. The piece cannot return to its previous position in the next turn, a different move must be done first."
If a move violates the rules but is allowed by the program, the program has a bug that must be corrected. If the bug is not to be corrected, the rules must be changed to accommodate the program.

19. Janeiro 2010, 17:55:26
Celticjim 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Sandoz:
on my current game with grillyx which will be over in 2 more moves his 5 general was in the middle of open squares,in fact he was given opportunity to do it again after I pointed out to him what happened.

as for our game-------you definitely could have benefitted from this bug

19. Janeiro 2010, 17:53:41
Sandoz 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Sandoz:
slight correction: this should of course only work if you move your piece between your own bombs and not if you move a piece between your oppenent's bombs.

And now I stop spamming ... :-)

19. Janeiro 2010, 17:48:07
Sandoz 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Celticjim: on the other hand, I know realize that I probabely could have beaten you by this cheap trick, lol

19. Janeiro 2010, 17:45:17
Sandoz 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Celticjim:
and as you know from our latest game, the whole forced movement thing sucks at all!! ;-)

19. Janeiro 2010, 17:39:48
Sandoz 
Assunto: Re: Espionage Bug
Celticjim:
As far as I know from iyt, it works like this:
If you have less than 6 moveable pieces on a board of open fast espionage (i.e. excl. hq and bombs) and you move one of them between two bombs of your opponent placed on the bottom line, then, within the next turn, you should be able to move your piece back to field it came from. For example: your opponent has a bomb/or hq on b10 and on d10 and you move your piece from c9 to c10. In that case, due to the forced movement thing, you should be able to move your piece back to c9 in your next turn.

Unfortunately, I can't have a look at your posted game in the bug list, as it's obviously still running.
But, in the bug reported by pauloaguia it seems to be the case like I desribed above.

Hope that helps.
Greets, Michael

19. Janeiro 2010, 15:08:51
Celticjim 
Assunto: Espionage Bug
Modificado por Celticjim (19. Janeiro 2010, 15:12:25)
just happened to me with an opponent moving his piece back to square he just left and I reported the bug.I see the same bug was also reported by pauloaguia back in august 09.Check it out.Whats going on here,this will undoubtedly cause someone to lose/win a game they shouldn't at some point
http://brainking.com/en/BugTracker
In fact 4 instances of same bug reported as far back as 2005.Slack job Fencer

19. Janeiro 2010, 13:16:34
Celticjim 
50 players--this is gonna be epic-roll on 2mrw

18. Janeiro 2010, 20:22:22
happy hermit 
Assunto: Re: Small Fast Espionage #2
SL-Bosse:

I just withdrew . . . I seem to be on a time-out binge again and rather not impose on anyone else.  :)

Have fun all.

18. Janeiro 2010, 19:10:11
SL-Bosse 
Assunto: Small Fast Espionage #2
It's less then 2 days before Small Fast Espionage #2 starts. So far 49 players, and more or less all top 10-players are in. But it's still space for more players, so sign-up!

16. Janeiro 2010, 19:37:15
Tian-Xian 
Assunto: Re: Help for recruiting Beginner's tournament
Chaos: Darkobie

16. Janeiro 2010, 16:47:55
Chaos 
Assunto: Re: Help for recruiting Beginner's tournament
Tian-Xian: I trust you :) what's his name? I'll send him an invite

16. Janeiro 2010, 16:23:22
Tian-Xian 
Assunto: Re: Help for recruiting Beginner's tournament
Chaos:
Oh
I was teaching my son and trying to get him interested but he has signed up since then

16. Janeiro 2010, 00:49:25
Chaos 
Assunto: Re: Help for recruiting Beginner's tournament
Tian-Xian: It's because good players could be tempted to log in with a new name to win the price.

15. Janeiro 2010, 19:30:46
Tian-Xian 
Assunto: Help for recruiting Beginner's tournament
y 1st log in b4 nov 29th ?

15. Janeiro 2010, 17:19:01
Chaos 
Assunto: Re:
happy hermit

15. Janeiro 2010, 15:21:58
happy hermit 
Chaos-  I'll add the following to all of the moves I make today. :

Public Service Announce: 

A free prize tournament for beginners (<1500 or unrated) has been set-up Espionage beginner's tournament to begin at the end of the month. Please see the tournament link for more info. 

Contact
Chaos for an invite.

15. Janeiro 2010, 10:49:56
Chaos 
Assunto: Help for recruiting Beginner's tournament
Modificado por Chaos (16. Janeiro 2010, 16:12:41)
I could use some help recruiting for the Espionage beginner's tournament. I have 20 players signed up now, I'm aiming at 25 at least. This should be possible considering the prizes, only it's hard to reach the beginners.


So I'm asking for help: maybe in your games (also other than espionage) you meet players who might be interested in joining. They can't have a rating higher than 1500 in any of the espionage variants and their 1st log in has to be before nov 29th last year.


The prizes they can win:


#1 - 1 year rook + 9 months bonus!
#2 - 6 months rook
#3 - 6 months knight


If you find interested players, please send them to me, or send me a message so I can invite them. Thanks!

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