Artful Dodger: It sounds like you're the type who would be pissed if Santa left snow on your floor after leaving you the gift you'd been waiting for

(V): I didn't claim he isn't a U.S. citizen. My question is why does he act as though he has something to hide? What happens if you are asked to provide proof of who you are when applying for a drivers licence, and you say no? He obviously has something to show or he couldn't have gone from weed toking scholar to community activist and then into politics. So why all the fuss? What is so important to him that he is willing to let some lame conspiracy theory go unchecked. All he had to do was show papers that any presidential hopeful is asked to show. He could still do it. Could have done it at any time. As for anyone else profiting from Obamas apparent lack of transparency, so what? Obama was in control of the story. If it is wrong for anyone other than Obama to profit from that story, then all Obama had to do was .. wait for it .. hold on to your chair .. this could be a paradigm shifting revelation .. chamber pot and paper bag ready? .. all Obama had to do was practice what he preaches.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1382241/Barack-Obama-faces-fresh-doubts-Hawaiian-heritage.html

"Where's The Birth Certificate? - subtitled The Case That Barack Obama Is Not Eligible To Be President - already has advance sales of 150,000 copies and is likely to enter the market at the top of Amazon's sales list. Joseph Farah, founder and chief executive of the publishers WND, claims that it will be one of the biggest books of the year, with sales of at least 500,000 copies................... His views, though, are anything but ordinary. In 1996 he seriously considered running for president under the far-Right Constitution Party banner, though he ultimately withdrew, and has made a number of wild and unsubstantiated claims, including suggestions that Hillary Rodham Clinton is a lesbian, and that Muslims worship Satan.

Lot more in that article... I think that's why it took two writers to write it.

Iamon_lyme: So has Palin and other Republicans.. So do celebrities and other famous people such as those who do well in sports, those who play the religion game, etc, etc.

Singling out just Democrats as the only people who write books after leaving a job is a little one sided and only half the story.

Iamon_lyme: No I did answer it. The families paid for it. The only bill the tax payer paid for was security.

"the one most to gain from questioning Obamas legitimacy was Obama."

No.. it'll be the ones selling the books carrying on the questioning. Jerome Corsi I see from news reports is publishing yet another of his books on the 'truth' of the matter for Conservatives to read and say "I told you so". Donald Trump has also played on the birth certificate matter to boost his support in the Republican/Tea party camp.

"This is why you continue bringing it up, is it not? "

Nope. I only brought it up because it was mentioned on this board by another and used it as an example of how some Americans are still caught in political hogwash.

"You don't tell your Queen what to do or say"

Yes she does get told what to do and what to say regarding certain of her roles as Monarch. She is our Queen, not the government or our PM.

(V): I don't believe pre-election Obama was playing a game of hounds and foxes. I don't believe he is that clever. He doesn't have to be, he has clever fellows like you to defend him. I think he genuinely feels that it is beneath his dignity to be treated as any other American president, and whatever his qualifications may be are none of our business. You don't tell your Queen what to do or say, so why should he listen to us? I will say that he is adept at learning from past democrat presidents. ~ Clinton write book make lots of money, I write book make lots of money. ~ Clinton good looking guy, me good looking guy.. no, better looking. ~ Clinton no care what future generations will have to deal with, me don't even know what that means.. what has that to do with me? Doesn't matter, I don't care about that either. ~ Past presidents go on speaking tours, make lots more money regardless of how good they were, me go on lecture circuit too.. hope the economy recovers enough for those fools to pay me what they payed Clinton.

(V): When I said most Americans are savy, does this not imply that some are not savy? The one most to gain from questioning Obamas legitimacy was Obama. This is why you continue bringing it up, is it not? When I asked you who is paying for the royal wedding, your answer was the families. You then said "Constitutional Monarchy", and credited them for being a tourist attraction. I understand they also fill a diplomatic role, do they not? As to how the wedding was payed for, you answered my question without really answering it. That's okay, I aready knew the answer.

Artful Dodger: "so instead they engage in never-ending ad hominem."

Artful Dodger: Talking about Glenn Beck again.

Or this?? Politics (Artful Dodger, 2011-04-30 19:37:56)

Iamon_lyme: No voices... just reading the news and various sites over how this stupidity over a birth certificate has been playing. Some hard right nutters have even been trying to say that Hawaii is not a state of the USA.

As to Art's "In reality, there was no kangaroo court."

Kangaroo court is an expression of how some people can judge someone/thing without credible evidence. It quite fits how some hard right nutters make up conspiracies (in this case that Obama is not an American citizen) and despite proof carry on thinking they are right.

Artful Dodger: I wasn't sure what he was trying to do. If he wants to play with straw dolls I have no objection. I don't know what he thinks he is accomplishing, except for giving us a platform to dispute the real (not imagined) nonsense going on in American politics today. God has a purpose for everyone, and if his is to play the fool then God bless his pointy little head.

(V): lol You have the advantage over me.. I don't know what the voices in your head are telling you, I only know what you and I have been saying.

Iamon_lyme: So.. you are saying that the tea party are copying "democrat/crack party" art and making it their own? They are more nutty so you say!!

Artful Dodger: Well how about that! A guy in a cowboy hat, sitting in a park and sippin' on a cup of joe (tea?) who is able to cite court rulings based on constitutional principles.. were these rulings only in favor of a left leaning demonstrators right to free speech? I would like to see gas bags wearing three piece suits try telling me how those rulings don't apply to anyone else.. are there any of those on youtube?

(V): "The kangaroo court that some Republican/tea party members set up.." It was Democrat/ crack party members who started that trend. it's been that way a long time now, long before the tea party ever showed up. The information you google might be getting rerouted through intermultidimensional trans-atlantic rifts, can't aways rely on what comes back from dimensions where everyones heads and hands are way too big for their bodies. In some dimensions the concept of hypocrisy is as foreign as knowing which side of the bread should be buttered. Due to translation difficulties it is not out the ordinary for research to come back somewhat demented or incomprehensible.

Artful Dodger: That guy is great! I'll have to watch some more of his videos.

(V): "Comply to whom?" .. The people who will be voting for either candidate, that's 'whom'. It is not a mandate, but something people have come to expect from either party. We have been lectured by the left to demand transparency, bipartisanship, and yes, even U.S citizenship status. The left insists the people have a right to know anything they want to know.. about any republican candidate. They don't need to tell us if the same standards of transparency and decency apply to them. The are above reproach, and above approach. We don't deserve them.. I mean really, we really don't.

Iamon_lyme: Comply to whom? The kangaroo court that some Republican/tea party members set up.... I ask you. Under what constitutional premise or law of the USA states that the President has to answer to such bogus courts?

Is Sideshow Bob in charge??

If it came down to a race between Trump and Obama I would vote for Trump. If Obama is put forward as the same and next "credible" candidate, I would vote for any republican candidate that party puts on the ticket. I think some former (disenchanted) Obama voters would either sit it out or vote for Trump as well. I would like to see Trump say "You're fired" to the Obama appointed czars. They then could have their own TV special, Dancing with the Czars, hosted by the the former king of czars.

(V): I said that "I think most Americans are savy.."Also, in a previous message I said it doesn't matter if he is a natural born citizen or not because he is now the president, and so we are stuck with him until the next election. When called upon to provide proof of medical health or anything else relevant (like, U.S. citizenship) Obama steadfastly refused to comply. He seemed to welcome questions about his citizenship, without acknowledging those questions, so I believe he wanted us to focus on that instead of other issues surrounding him. Whenever democrats talk about something they "believe" in, something like transparency, it doesn't necessarily mean they are talking about themselves.

Iamon_lyme: Long term.. as well as the financial income they generate by being a loved Royal family... they are a great tourist attraction.

As to savy.... "President Obama is not a natual born citizen therefore he is ineligible to be president".

Conspiracy theory or just plain bad form due to losing the Election?

The issue of race in presidential elections has been put to rest with the election of Barack Obama. That would seem obvious. What doesn't seem obvious is our commitment to the constitution. President Obama is not a natual born citizen therefore he is ineligible to be president

(V): Most Americans understand the political motivations behind elections here. Only some fall for the hype that filters through into foreign markets. Whether they speak up or not, I think most Americans are savy to what their own free press does with that freedom.

(V): The families you say? Are their apparent fanancial/investment instincts genetic?

Artful Dodger: Comparing two time dates with a 44 year gap without the relevant background data explaining aspects of demographics and vote swings due to dynamic changes in Democratic Party and Republican Party core policies...

.. Do all Americans really fall for empty figures like that?

Iamon_lyme: The families. Great thing to have a constitutional Monarchy.

Horse walks into a bar. The bartender looks up and says "Why the long face?" Horse says "My human care giver continues calling me an old nag, even after leading academics have condemned such insulting stereotypes. He continues to promote the ever widening rift between humans and members of the aminal kingdom." Bartender looks nervously around, sees John Kerry coming in and says "Norm!!"

Artful Dodger: It's amazing that people waste such time worrying about something like this.
Makes me wonder if anyone got paid to do it.

"leading academics"

Please!

(V): I don't watch reality TV shows, so I don't know if the royal wedding has started yet or not. Will they be serving Coca Cola? Will Coca Cola be sponsoring the event? if not, then who is paying for it?

(V): lol I don't know. Would they?

Iamon_lyme: By all standards a lizard (if you know your Douglas), then there is the turkey... But at least this time side shows over birth certificates might be avoided.

... At least some cracks have been made in rip off America where the rich get richer and the rest of Americans pay for it.

Coca Cola were on UK TV tonight claiming that UK citizens would rather have a cheap t-shirt for their reward points than say a i-pod nano.. or a cheap hat rather than a nice 12MP camera.

They know us so well ..... and I bet the t-shirt and hat are made in China.

.. they wouldn't lie would they??

if past elections are any indication we might see 6 years of lame duck presidency instead of only 2. After the photogenic Clinton won his second term I gave up making predictions. Who knows what may happen this time? Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice shame on me.

"credible" is the opperative word.

It was not a rhetorical question. I would really like to know.

(V): .. mmmm slight problem with crack party/democrat election plans... who is their credible candidate?

.. mmmm slight problem with tea party/republican election plans... do they have a credible candidate.

Übergeek 바둑이: All righty then, Honor Diverse Uniformity will be my new bumper sticker. It's fun being cheeky when I'm talking physics, but when talking politics it just seems like the right thing to do.

Artful Dodger: My main goal will be to make sure he doesn't have another 4 years to destroy us even more. So, that means I won't necessarily vote in the primary for the person I personally like the best, but the person that I think has the best chance to beat the anointed one. If they are one in the same, PERFECT. But goal #1 is to get rid of this guy. It's sad, but it's SO important.

I tend to go for the more Libertarian. But they don't usually have much of a chance.

Artful Dodger: And let's not forget Thugs at polls intimidating people.

Artful Dodger: I'm afraid if that was the ticket, it might be a sure win for Mr. Incompetent.

Iamon_lyme:

> Do I place my Honor Uniformity bumber sticker next to the one that says Honor Diversity, or over it?

Cultural melting pot or cultural mosaic? I suppose some people think that a centralized world government would lead to a disappearance of all cultures, a cultural melting pot. In that sense the USA is a good example of cultures meeting and melding together. I think that in such cases people change, although they do retain some of their own cultural identity. Think of Irish Americans or Italian Americans. While their culture is transformed, much of the culture of their original homeland remains.

Iamon_lyme: Or do I replace both with one that says Honor Homogeneous Diversity?

Do I place my Honor Uniformity bumber sticker next to the one that says Honor Diversity, or over it?

Artful Dodger:

> What's so scary about Trump is that he's actually gaining traction! I don't see any of the top picks for the Republican party as hopeful for anything. I'm getting completely disappointed in both parties. (I love the Tea Party though - seriously)

According to the latest poll (I think it was done by Reed), Donald Trump has a slight lead over Mike Huckabee. I am not entirely sure about whether he can keep this up. Notoriety is helping him, but Barrack Obama made a good point today. Obama said that instead of focusing on important issues, they turned the birther issue into a side show.

I am not entirely sure how Donald Trump would fare if he has to talk of fixing the economy, tackling the healthcare issue, fixing the foreign trade deficit, handling terrorism and hostile foreign governments, and keeping peaceful relations with Russia and China.

So far he has been successful in distracting the public from the real issues (like balancing the budget), but sooner or later he has to show his mettle in how he would deal with real problems that extend far beyond a birth certificate or a college degree. It will be interesting to see whether he can transform himself from provocateur to real contender.

Iamon_lyme:

> I don't like what is hapopening to the U.S. because this is where I live, but after putting personal feelings to the side I can't ignore the fact that it has served its purpose in the world, and now will be part of an effort to create stability through uniformity.

I think that the biggest challenge that the USA will face in the future is not terrorism or a financial meltdown, but the slow degradation of American life through inaction. If Americans (or any country) want their life to be better, they have to accept that change is necessary in the political and economic system. I am not talking about catastrophic change or revolution, but changes that ensure that every citizen gets an equal chance at a good life. As things are, the power structure is skewed in favour of big monopolies and wealthy businessmen. That means that big numbers of the population are having their lives slowly eroded away. For this to change, Americans will have to accept that pursuing capitalism at all costs will not solve the problem, but merely aggravate it.

Americans don't like anything that feels like socialism (the current healthcare debate is a good sign of that). However, only through "socialist" measures can the lives of the average working class citizens improve. The 20th century is a sign of that. All that we have to do is look at the European community after WW II. The socialist measures taken there greatly improved the lives of many of Europe's citizens. Americans will have to accept that these socialist measures are not a sign of big government, but of a humane government. The USA (and other countries) needs not intrusive socialism but efficient socialism. That means a balance between the social safety net and the freedom of companies and businesses to operate. Unfortunately Ameican polticis has become polarized in bipartisanship, and that means that measures that could help the working class (like healthcare reform) are torn apart to the point that they become a failure. Big companies and lobbyists feed on that bipartisan system and exploit it for political and economic gain.

The USA also needs to do some soul searching in respect to its foreign policy. The USA has suceeded in building big army, navy and air forces. The Cold War and terrorism have skewed American foreign policy to one of preemptive action. What Americans politicians see as promoting democracy thorugh force is perceived differently outside of the USA. The increasing costs of keeping such a large military force are staggering and they are eroding away at the life of the American working class. If the USA could reduce its military budget in half, then it could provide free university education and free healthcare for everybody. Instead the money is being spent in enterprises which drain the American economy under the guise of keeping Americans safe. Somewhere in all this the USA has to find a balance between peaceful coexistence, self-defense, and the economics of war. It is difficult in our world, but the hawks that say that military might is the way to go are doing a disservice to taxpayers who front the money to pay for the wars. They are not the ones paying for the wars, and it is not their families that get killed in the bombings and the fighting.

Artful Dodger: Bachman/Palin 2012

Übergeek 바둑이: I think you are misunderstanding my point. I don't like what is hapopening to the U.S. because this is where I live, but after putting personal feelings to the side I can't ignore the fact that it has served its purpose in the world, and now will be part of an effort to create stability through uniformity. I assumed Brave New World was intended as a warning, not a road map for getting there. My assumptions are rarely correct. I can agree with much of what you say. except for your question why is uniformity a bad thing. And the fact that we are becoming increasingly dependant on foreign goods and services is as comforting to me as knowing that if my business fails because of goons demanding their protection money (seriously, what is the difference?) I can always come crawling back to those goons and ask for some of it back in the form of governmental goods and services. Yes, America will decline and get absorbed, because no nation has ever managed to avoid the event horizen of moral degradation after acheiving stability and wealth. History has proven this over and over. But it is interesting to me how those who don't believe in Biblical prophesy are the ones working their tails off to make it come true. Just because I don't like where we are heading to doesn't mean I don't believe we won't get there. As I said once before, I don't like unpleasant surprises.

Donald Trump, politics newest Bozo, must have nothing better to do than distract the president with useless crap. The "birther" issue was laid to rest today when the White House released the president's long form birth certificate. Since Bozo Trump has nothing better to do, he is now questioning Obama's education. I suppose graduating Magna Cum Laude from Harvard is not enough for the Bozo. He figures that Obama somehow cheated his way into Columbia and Harvard. I think the Republicans should distance themselves from the Bozo. If he keeps this up he will do more damage than good to the Republicans. In a way, the Democrats must be loving this. Bozo Trump is handing them Obama's reelection on a platter. I supose Mike Huckabee must be happy too. Huckabee's lack of charisma looks much improved when compared to Bozo Trump.