Vikings: That's correct. Even if it's obvious that you won't be gammoned, a resignation will cost a gammon or even a backgammon unless a man's been taken off first.

frolind: I can see how that would be annoying in turn-based games. At Vog, where it's real-time, that sort of foolishness is rare (perhaps because it's more hassle asking for the resignation than it is to say no each time). I'm okay enough with the current way at the moment, though I'm concerned for those players who get caught out and lose points needlessly.

BBW I've slightly changed what I said in that post so it may not read as you originally saw, but the bit about avoiding backgammon by resigning a gammon wouldn't be the case. (Like you, I did think it might but it's more about losing more points than you should rather than fewer.)

LionsLair: yes, the "bug" where you have to use both dice has been fixed.

BIG BAD WOLF:
ok, thanx... I understand, I just haven't seen anything about it...
one other thing, I gather from vague skimming of other posts that the 'bug' has been fixed in the dice program?... meaning that whenever possible that both dice must be used?

I like the current resignation system, even if it requires making some extra moves to get it right. On dailygammon we often see people complain about people who repeatedly offer a normal resign when gammons or more are possible. That's not a problem here.
A possibility to resign the entire match at once could be nice, though.

LionsLair: I've already asked Fencer about that. The cube games are not separate variations and so they "share" the same ratings scale. There are arguments for having the games as separate (another rating scale to climb) and for not (it keeps things simpler, not least of which is the length of those dropdown boxes!). Fencer's all for simplicity at this point!

He did mention, though, that when he unveils BrainKing's Ladders (in due course, lol) we'll have separate ones for cube and non-cube backgammons, so we can use those to demostrate our respective chequer and cube skills. :-))

LionsLair: That actually came up a long time ago when Fencer was first introducing the game. Since the cube has been added to all the gammon games (6 versions currently), Fencer did not really want to add a variant for the cube version and double the number of games. (Then the question of doing it like other sites and make 3 points cube version a different game then a 5 point cube version, etc...)

In the end, Fencer liked the idea of making the cube an additional "option" to the game rather then making it a new game.

BIG BAD WOLF: I read that to be that you don't want to resign because it will calculate points by where you are when you resign, and not give the oppertunity to resign for fewer points that would be the likely result

BIG BAD WOLF:
...would it be a problem or is it just not implimented yet to list games with the cube as "pro" games...?
...I realize it would be alot of extra space to list new BKR ratings for each "pro" game of the 6 existing 'gammon variations... but the fact is a good "pro"gammon player may only be an average 'normal' game player... an average player may only win 40% of the time in a normal game and yet win 65% of "pro" games...
... :o) just a suggestion since you're taking them!

playBunny: I never thought of that, but I believe I understand what you are saying.

That is if I resign in a game where I'm currently only in "gammon", then I would only lose the 2 points. But that might be something I do because of how my men are setup, there is a good change that I might be "backgammoned" and lose 3 points - so beter to resign and get 2 points then chance losing 3 points. (At least that is what I think you are trying to say.)

There's a major departure from how we understand backgammon to work.

Resignation has not been implemented in the standard way. Fencer didn't realise that resignation is a multiple-choice request that the "winner" accepts or rejects. Instead, we have a Brainking version that automatically decides whether it's a normal, gammon or backgammon loss depending on the postions of the men. If there's a man on the bar or in the winner's home table then it's a backgammon - regardless of how the winner's men are positioned. If the loser hasn't yet born off a men then it's a gammon. Otherwise it's a normal loss. There's no choice for the loser and hence no requirement for the winner to accept or reject. An example of how strange this is - if you resign when it's your first move then you will lose by a backgammon!

The result of this is that resigning is not an option unless you are going to lose by a gammon anyway. To have a normal single-point loss means having to play the game out until you've taken a man off the board. Only then can you resign a single.

I've spoken to Fencer and my feeling is that he's put a lot of effort into "The Bug" and into getting the BG+cube together and that adding a request-resign--accept/deny dialogue is one complication too far. As resignation is only a shortcut, it's not as serious as The Bug, ie it won't mean the wrong player losing, but it will extend games longer than otherwise or cause unwary players give away points that they needn't. Because of that last possibility, I've requested that the warning be highlighted in red or something.

(I'll add the short version of this issue into the list but thought it deserved a separate post)

BIG BAD WOLF: Indeed! There's a rule called the Jacoby rule which states that gammons and backgammons don't count unless the cube has been turned at least once (when, if you accept, you should be taking into account the game position and risk). It's a very reasonable rule for Hypergammon given that gammon is so common.

If someone has a way the rules can be writen to be beter understood, I'm sure Fencer would be happy to accept any suggestions and/or corrections.

= = = =

WOW - playing a hypergammon game with a cube, I never thought about how easy it could be to be gammoned or even backgammoned.

grenv: I interpreted the current rules to express the same thing, but with the concept of possession reversed from how "everyone" thinks of it.

frolind: Yes, it seems to be worded incorrectly. In fact most rules speak of the player with control of the cube, rather than in possession. This may be a translation problem, but it seems a strange way to describe it.

On a related topic, I think the part in the rules about cube possession should be changed to something like:
"If a double offer is accepted, the player who accepted the offer becomes the possessor of the cube which is shown on the player's side of the board with the new value.
(...)
After the first double offer is accepted, the next offer can be sent only by the cube possessor ..."

playBunny: Yea, I'm always for things looking as "correct" as possible even though since I've never used the cube outside of computer games, I don't even notice anything as being out of place.

But that is the purpose of these suggestions - things that would be nice if it can be done, but not neccessary to play the game correctly.

grenv: I agree, though it's nice if it looks correct on the board for the same reason that BBW's idea about having the scores near the board is good - it saves having to hunt around the page for the information.

BIG BAD WOLF: It should be closer to the person who can double. However the way it is now you can tell pretty easily because you have the option of doubling before the dice is rolled.

In regular games on a real board it actually is necessary to have the cube in the correct place to keep track.

frolind: Just so I understand how it works, if I double and my opponent accepts - then the "cube" will actually sit closer to that player then myself since the other play now has control of the cube, correct?

So at the start, the "1" should be in the middle - then after that, the 2,4,etc.. cube should be in the upper right / lower right of the board?

frolind: "Showing the cube on the correct side of the board" ...I mentioned that one to Fencer as well. I would prefer it be changed but it is something I could get used to.

I also agree that a time out should resign the whole match.

5) No draw offers on single games
6) Showing the cube on the correct side of the board after a double has been accepted (sorry for repeating that, Fencer;))

BIG BAD WOLF: Actually the score being more prominent applies to other matches as well. I never know the score as I can't be bothered spending the time looking for it, but in a doubling cube match it can be very important tactically.

4) A time out forfeits the whole match, not just the current game.

Fencer has been good at trying to fix any "bugs" and such which mess up the game play with the cube, but I know I have a couple of other suggestions and and sure others have minor suggestions also - so as an attempt to get them all in one place, please feel free to add other suggestions so we can get a list toghether for Fencer (when he gets some extra time).

1) Of course tournaments with the cube is my big suggestion, and Fencer already said this should come at some point.

2) Would be nice to have the current score up next to the playing board instead of buried down in the "game information". Maybe next to the points, have the current "score" for each player also

3) In the "Fished games of this match" section which displays who won each game of the match, would be nice to see how many points were won in each game (without selecting each game to see it there.)

Anyone else have any "minor" suggestions.

lol.. I know.. and the time limit on it is only 1 hour...

lovelysharon: Lol. What if he never conmes back? The never ending match.....................

he is offline now.. and so will probably time out again ... don't know if still no pts awarded ... how long will it go on I wonder..

lovelysharon: Is Diogenes going to resign or are you going give him a reprieve?

I believe there is a problem with the scoring on timing out with the new doubling cube... I was playing a 3pt match with diogenes #1114006 ... first game he won so score was 1-0..next game I won 2 pts so score was 1-2 .. in third match diogenes timed out.. i was awarded the win but received no pts ... so we have a fourth game starting..

rod03801: "Will the cube be usuable in the backgammon games in those? Will there be an additional step in the creation asking if you want the cube for the backgammon portions?"

Interesting questions. The Backgammon-with-cube has the same Game Id as plain Backgammon so no existing tournaments will be effected. With new ones I imagine that you'd either have the cube with your gammons or not but not both. (Maybe there'll be a single Use doubling switch covering all games or maybe there'll be both versions of every backgammon name.)

LionsLair: Lol. I think the bug fix was the bone. This new development is a free pass to the butchers store room! (For you lions, that is. For bunnies like me it's a most juicy field to nibble in, full of luscious grasses and tasty flowers)

I think it will be great in hypergammon. I look forward to the first such tournament.

WhiteTower: and I mean "introduced" in general for money games, not just here in Brainking for money games :)

rod03801: No, please, the cube was introduced as a feature for money games in Backgammon :) No need to make other games go that way...

When tournaments can be created, what will happen in the tournaments that have all game types in them (Chess, line games, backgammon variants, etc...)?? Will the cube be usuable in the backgammon games in those? Will there be an additional step in the creation asking if you want the cube for the backgammon portions?

Hmm... a "cube" possibility might be interesting in other game types, too, though... :-)

Fencer:
thank you for the thown bone! ;o)
it is and will be appreciated by many!

I don't think that I would want to use it in anti backgammon, I'll have to think about that further

rod03801: Yes. It might be interesting with the anti backgammon.

Is the cube available for all variations?

playBunny: Until it happens to you, it's impossible, right? ;)

WhiteTower: I reckon I'm still missing something then because you wouldn't play the 1s to bearoff but would shift other pieces down. Unless we're talking complete Duh? players.

Ah, perhaps if the turtle had men trapped on the hare's 2 and 3 points, for example, and hadn't been forced to relinquish them ... ?

playBunny: If your opponent thinks like the hare in the well-known Aesop tale, the 1s covering your man could be removed with one or more 1-1 throws, and one or more 6-6 on the turtle's dice could make things pretty uncomfortable for the hare ;) So it's just theoretical - obviously, never happens between even half-competent players!

WhiteTower: How so? The man trapped on the ace point can't be released until bearoff is finished? Or am I thinking of something of the wrong game (I know it as Tapa)?

Pythagoras: Indeed, I always thought this rule could be made optional. I believe Plakoto is played that way to stop wasting time on a lost game - even though devil can make the dice so bad for the "winner" that the game can be still saved by the "loser" :)

Fencer: thanks .. lightning fast fix :)

WhiteTower: I hope it will be detected in Plakoto that, if both sides have a single man covered in each other's starting points at home, the game is an automatic draw, as there is no way to finish the game.

Yes this is correct but lets wait first Plakoto to be implement........:-)

Also from the above i conclude that you continue playing the game (Plakoto) even after one side has hit the "mana"/starting point in home board.
And this is the best i think, as i know the other Plakoto-variation that when the "mana" is being hit then the game automatically ends.......

Hrqls: Please try it now.

i posted a bug in the bug tracker :

i see the link 'swap dice' in this game while i cant make a move with any of the dice :)

Fencer: great! thanks :)

i added 8 games for a 3 point match with doubling cube to the waiting room (4 with me being black, 4 with me being white)

anyone who wants to play ... they are there to be started :)

Fencer: Indeed, 15 + 15 new images to be exact. Mind you, the 14 or 15 on top of 1 will happen once in a few billion years :) BTW I hope it will be detected in Plakoto that, if both sides have a single man covered in each other's starting points at home, the game is an automatic draw, as there is no way to finish the game.