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6. April 2013, 19:29:52
(V) 
Emne: Re: in a free market
Iamon lyme: But we don't have a 'free' market.

6. April 2013, 19:28:20
(V) 
Emne: Re: Who is not free to build what? You can't mean not free to build and market HHO converters, because it's already happening. Some will be on the market this summer. Who can stop them?
Iamon lyme: No... to the cost of manufacture of solar charging points and the installation of them. One bad corporation does not mean they are all bad and can't work. It's like the difference between Amazon (big tax dodger) and a UK based business who pays their way.

"....It used a much larger converter of course..."

So it looks like a many smaller cell conversion system being fed by a main water tank could work for a standard sized vehicle. ;P

"You do realise the downside to this though, don't you? Now we will be fighting wars for distilled water and baking soda."

Not for the water at least.. it's not hard to do at home. Moonshiner's have been doing it for... well, a long time.

6. April 2013, 00:10:04
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: Solar powered charging stations cost nothing to build or install and maintain. It's all free. And taxes go down instead of up to not pay for those stations.
Iamon lyme: "Yes, they are not free to build.. but that was not the point."

Okay, you meant solar powered charging stations are not free. Not only that, but it's doubtful they could pay for themselves and make a profit without tax payer "contributions". That was MY point. Solyndra was given a big government subsidy to get started, but it all ended very quickly with the CEO and top brass giving themselves big retirement packages. How long was Solyndra in business?

Yeah, solar powered charging stations costing someone a pretty dime (if not the people using it) wasn't your point, I got that.

So what WAS your point? That even if an enterprise can't sustain itself in a free market it can still do what it was designed to do?

5. April 2013, 23:51:23
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: Solar powered charging stations cost nothing to build or install and maintain. It's all free. And taxes go down instead of up to not pay for those stations.
(V): "Your saying no private business is willing to entertain financing them?"

Not only just willing, it's already starting to happen.

"Yes, they are not free to build.. but that was not the point."

Who is not free to build what? You can't mean not free to build and market HHO converters, because it's already happening. Some will be on the market this summer. Who can stop them?

"I'm not sure that is possible yet as a street level device."

If you mean running a car on only water, that's already happened as well. Saw a video where someone was able to run a pick up truck with no gas in the tank. It was even able to accelerate going uphill without losing pressure. It used a much larger converter of course, but it fit in the back of the truck with no problem.

"Wow, it's legit!"

[ .... Just say I believe you V ;P ]

I do now... I'm a believer in trust but verify. When I saw water in glass jars my first thought was the cold fusion hoax a few years back... cold fusion supposedly taking place in glass jars.

You do realise the downside to this though, don't you? Now we will be fighting wars for distilled water and baking soda.

5. April 2013, 21:45:16
(V) 
Emne: Re: Solar powered charging stations cost nothing to build or install and maintain. It's all free. And taxes go down instead of up to not pay for those stations.
Iamon lyme: Your saying no private business is willing to entertain financing them? Yes, they are not free to build.. but that was not the point.

"If a car could run only on the hydrogen from it's own water supply, and channel the water by product back into that water supply"

I'm not sure that is possible yet as a street level device.

"for gathering hydrogen from water is about as effective as extracting a little bit of power from the cars own intertia and feeding that back into the electrical system."

No, the gasses fed to the engine are changed. Our atmosphere is mainly nitrogen and does not burn. HHO being two molecules of hydrogen and one of oxygen means the gasses are more reactive, hence more power for the same amount of fuel.

"without ever having to fill a hydrogen tank from time to time, then you would essentially have a perpetual motion machine."

No, the water would need topping up and the electrodes will only last so long.

"Wow, it's legit!"

.... Just say I believe you V ;P

5. April 2013, 21:37:23
(V) 
Emne: Re: Well Al is an idiot.
Artful Dodger: I think he was an idiot well before he became a democrat!! lol

5. April 2013, 05:36:03
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: Sounds great, but it takes energy to take the water molecule apart to get the hydrogen so we can then combine it with oxygen to make energy for powering the car.
(V): Wow, it's legit! And it's catching on quick. By this summer some HHO water converters will be on the market in someplace called Bear County... I didn't pay attention to the state this is in, so I'll go back to find the video again. They'll sell for about 1,500 hundred dollars, but there are much cheaper ones you can put together on your own. I suspect the homemade ones will be cropping up all over the place.

4. April 2013, 23:18:04
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: Sounds great, but it takes energy to take the water molecule apart to get the hydrogen so we can then combine it with oxygen to make energy for powering the car.
(V): "but last time I checked you have to pay for that power. No one is going to give it away for free"

[ Some are. New solar powered charging stations for electric cars are popping up in various places. ]

I stand corrected. Solar powered charging stations cost nothing to build or install and maintain. It's all free. And taxes go down instead of up to not pay for those stations.

"The cars carried the water in jars with the necessary electricity coming from the cars own power system to create HHO. No need for a tank to carry the gases.. it's an on demand system.... the videos showed that!!"

When I have time I'll look at those videos and then do a little research of my own. But I suspect having an onboard system for gathering hydrogen from water is about as effective as extracting a little bit of power from the cars own intertia and feeding that back into the electrical system. If a car could run only on the hydrogen from it's own water supply, and channel the water by product back into that water supply, without ever having to fill a hydrogen tank from time to time, then you would essentially have a perpetual motion machine.

But even if we are only a few years away from a practical self sustaining hydrogen car, how do you propose we keep any of our aircraft in the air using only hydrogen power? Maybe we could convince the entire world to give up air travel. Also, there are products we use every day made from oil that have nothing to do with burning fossil fuels. I suppose we could live without those too. And when global warming finally kicks in, we can give up wearing clothes... we can use parasols for when we're out in the hot scorching sun.

4. April 2013, 21:56:38
Papa Zoom 
Emne: Re: Well I'd want to find out the truth behind the technology and if it proved true, I'd urge congress.....
(V): Well Al is an idiot.

4. April 2013, 21:55:35
(V) 
Emne: Re: Well I'd want to find out the truth behind the technology and if it proved true, I'd urge congress.....
Artful Dodger: So would I. If police officials are stating it works......

But... imo, it'd just turn into "lets bring up Al Gore time" :/

4. April 2013, 21:26:28
(V) 
https://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/iain-duncan-smith-iain-duncan-smith-to-live-on-53-a-week

This petition calls for Iain Duncan Smith, the current Work and Pensions Secretary, to prove his claim of being able to live on £7.57 a day, or £53 a week.

On Monday's Today Programme David Bennett, a market trader, said that after his housing benefit had been cut, he lives on £53 per week. The next interviewee was Work and Pensions Secretary Iain Duncan Smith, who was defending the changes. The interviewer then asked him if he could live on this amount. He replied: "If I had to, I would."

This petition calls on Iain Duncan Smith to live on this budget for at least one year. This would help realise the conservative party`s current mantra that "We are all in this together".

This would mean a 97% reduction in his current income, which is £1,581.02 a week or £225 a day after tax* [Source: The Telegraph]

Please join me.

>>>>>> Currently over 427,000 signatures with only 500,000 needed.

4. April 2013, 21:11:45
Papa Zoom 
Emne: Re: If I'm the President, I hire and independent firm to substantiate the claims in the videos and then I put up a few billion in tax money to fun production of these things. (if it's true).
(V): Well I'd want to find out the truth behind the technology and if it proved true, I'd urge congress to pass some regulations OR I'd have the Regulatory agency pass something AND I'd offer financial incentives for car manufactures to create the technology in their cars. Money talks.

Remember Solyndra.

4. April 2013, 20:05:54
(V) 
Emne: Re: Sounds great, but it takes energy to take the water molecule apart to get the hydrogen so we can then combine it with oxygen to make energy for powering the car.
Iamon lyme: .... The cars carried the water in jars with the necessary electricity coming from the cars own power system to create HHO. No need for a tank to carry the gases.. it's an on demand system.... the videos showed that!!

"but last time I checked you have to pay for that power. No one is going to give it away for free"

Some are. New solar powered charging stations for electric cars are popping up in various places.

... you could use a manure powered battery to charge your cars battery.
... Dynamo attached to a bike can charge.
... small windmill (same as used to pump water on farms) could generate power.
... focused reflector system..
... etc.

;P

4. April 2013, 18:31:16
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: Sounds great, but it takes energy to take the water molecule apart to get the hydrogen so we can then combine it with oxygen to make energy for powering the car.
(V): "Like the 12V system used to run the lights, stereo, air con, etc that's attached to the car battery?"

We've learned how to tap into the cars own inertia and convert that back into electricity, but it's not like a perpetual motion machine... inertia can only give back a small part of the energy used to run the car.

I was talking about the power needed to get the fuel for running the car. These cars don't run on water, they run on the hydrogen we get from water. It takes power to separate the hydrogen from water, that's how we get the fuel for powering the car. The cars engine causes hydrogen to bond to oxygen (converting it back into water) which creates enough energy for powering the car. In a worse case scenario you would need to burn coal to power the turbines that make the electricity used to extract the hydrogen from water. Getting the juice from a hydroelectric plant is more environmentally friendly, but last time I checked you have to pay for that power. No one is going to give it away for free... people who work for the power companies need to eat too.

My point is we don't need to use energy to create fossil fuels because they already exist. It's less expensive to get that fuel and process it than to create a fuel like hydrogen. In the future, if technology is allowed to progress naturally, I don't doubt we will have sources of energy that make fossil fuels obsolete. But we don't live in the future... not yet. <(:op

4. April 2013, 15:07:22
(V) 
Emne: Re: Sounds great, but it takes energy to take the water molecule apart to get the hydrogen so we can then combine it with oxygen to make energy for powering the car.
Iamon lyme: Like the 12V system used to run the lights, stereo, air con, etc that's attached to the car battery?

"Government interferes in this process in an effort to speed up what would naturally occur anyway, and in effect can (unintentionally) cause technological advancement to slow down."

... yes.... can. Sometimes not though. Concorde was a government run project.

4. April 2013, 15:03:34
(V) 
Emne: Re: If I'm the President, I hire and independent firm to substantiate the claims in the videos and then I put up a few billion in tax money to fun production of these things. (if it's true).
Artful Dodger: But that would be classed by many in the USA as government interference... wouldn't it!!

"I suspect that hidden in the secrets of science are a vast number of ways to produce clean energy (or cleaner energy) and we ought to be exploring some of these claims on a grand scale."

Grand scale manure batteries supplying cheap energy to remote towns who have lots of cattle near. :P

They do work, but I think the thought of it for some is toooo retro.

3. April 2013, 22:26:53
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re:Anyway, solar panels and windmills and electric cars aren't enough to replace everything we get from oil.
(V): I've said this before, the reason we've been able to advance so fast technologically is because private enterprise was allowed to do what it does naturally. Government interferes in this process in an effort to speed up what would naturally occur anyway, and in effect can (unintentionally) cause technological advancement to slow down. Not only that, but it can also create unforeseen conditions and problems in other areas of society as well.

It's called the law of unintentional consequences, and we've already seen what can happen when we tried to make some beneficial changes in nature. An Island somewhere has too many of one kind of non indigenous animal, an invasive species that may have got there aboard a merchant ship. So we decide to correct the problem by introducing another species that will prey on the one that shouldn't have been there to begin with. But now the predatory species has taken over the Island, and is creating unforeseen problems as bad as or maybe worse than the species we were trying to control. Overreaching governments are notorious at doing the same thing, interjecting themselves into a natural process in an effort to control it.

3. April 2013, 21:36:06
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: The only "pollution" we've had to deal with lately is debris from last years Japanese tsunami.
(V): "The pollutants pumped out into the air never disappear into thin air, as we might like to believe."

I said pollutants dissipate. I did not say they disappear.

3. April 2013, 21:30:09
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re:Anyway, solar panels and windmills and electric cars aren't enough to replace everything we get from oil.
(V): Iamon lyme: "...fitting hydrogen converters to their cars, which are powered by water."

Clean efficient energy, and the only by product is water. Sounds great, but it takes energy to take the water molecule apart to get the hydrogen so we can then combine it with oxygen to make energy for powering the car. This can get a bit expensive, seeing as how we must first use energy to get something that can make energy.

3. April 2013, 20:39:46
Papa Zoom 
Emne: Re:Anyway, solar panels and windmills and electric cars aren't enough to replace everything we get from oil.
(V): If I'm the President, I hire and independent firm to substantiate the claims in the videos and then I put up a few billion in tax money to fun production of these things. (if it's true).

I suspect that hidden in the secrets of science are a vast number of ways to produce clean energy (or cleaner energy) and we ought to be exploring some of these claims on a grand scale.

I also suspect that the big oil lobby is working hard to squelch such and idea.

3. April 2013, 20:07:54
(V) 
Emne: Re:Anyway, solar panels and windmills and electric cars aren't enough to replace everything we get from oil.
Iamon lyme: No they are not enough... But with other stuff, they can reduce our reliance on it. When you see your countrymen fitting hydrogen converters to their cars, which are powered by water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5nld6HzEjM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUgUF5M3FTI

3. April 2013, 19:52:19
(V) 
Emne: Re: The only "pollution" we've had to deal with lately is debris from last years Japanese tsunami.
Iamon lyme: Wrong...

http://www.chinadialogue.net/article/show/single/en/5615

"As Jaffe explains, the commonly heard phase “air pollution knows no boundaries” takes on a new meaning when we start to understand how pollution is travelling around the globe. The pollutants pumped out into the air never disappear into thin air, as we might like to believe.

Typical westerly wind flows across the mid-latitudes of the Northern Hemisphere mean air pollution from China is often carried over the Pacific Ocean. If the weather conditions are right, contaminants including mercury, ozone, sulphur and nitrogen oxides, black carbon and desert dust, can reach the west coast of the US within days.

The most visible recent examples were the giant dust storms originating from the Gobi desert in 1998 and 2001, which carried significant levels of pollutants across to the US. At the time, researchers feared this could be the start of an era of Chinese pollution dumping itself on the US. However, a similar large event has not occurred since, although smaller dust storms are still frequent.

Far more common, says Jaffe, have been the ozone events. These are not visible in the same way as giant dust storms, so haven´t garnered the same level of interest, but have proven to be damaging to public health and air quality standards. Levels of ozone detected at the mountaintop research centre have been "creeping up" over the past decade, according to data collected at the site, a result linked to, among factors, rapidly increasing vehicle emissions from Asia."

..........."Ironically, the US could also be contributing to its own mercury pollution too if it pushes through plans to scale up the export of coal to China.

US coal is already being exported to China through Canada. Just south of the west coast port city of Vancouver, the Westshore Coal Terminal ships 22 million tonnes of coal a year, of which 59% goes to China. There are now plans to build dozens of new terminals in the states of Washington and Oregon, on the west coast of the US, and export 150 million tonnes of coal a year to Asia.

"It's a classic jobs versus environment," says Jaffe, who lives in Washington state, which is phasing out its only coal-burning power station. "It's a dumb idea. We ship coal to China, they burn it and we get the pollution back.""

3. April 2013, 07:21:28
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re:
(V): "No they are not, you are just using '''liberals''' as a scapegoat for everything that you think is wrong with the USA."


I wasn't talking about "everything". They are responsible for most of the goofy ideas we Americans are treated to on an almost daily basis. I was also talking about the game liberals play when it comes to oil...

They approach it from an environmental angle. This gives them their excuse for limiting oil production and refining. They push for "energy alternatives" for two reasons. They say it's better for the environment. And it will reduce our dependence on foreign oil... which is a crock, because if they hadn't been working so diligently to limit our production of oil, which includes not allowing the Alaskan pipeline to be finished, then dependence on foreign oil wouldn't be an issue. But if oil production has been rising all this time (according to you and the New York times) then apparently liberals have been lying about our dependence on foreign oil.

Whenever the US goes to war in a country that has oil, they automatically assume the reason for that war is to get control of their oil. This is also a crock, and for the same reason liberals push for energy alternatives. They claim it would reduce our dependence on foreign oil, and then we wouldn't have to invade other countries to get their oil... I think some of them have been smoking weed for so long anything they dream up seems reasonable to them.

Anyway, solar panels and windmills and electric cars aren't enough to replace everything we get from oil. But even if I assume liberals are correct about the US going to war for oil, they can't avoid the obvious... they are the ones who created the conditions that led to those wars. It's fascinating how their reasoning process works... they see themselves as blameless, but even in their fantasies they can't avoid pointing the same finger back at themselves.

The claim that wars are fought over oil is not related to their efforts to limit our oil production, it just happens to be a convenient complaint they are able to tie to our lack of adequate domestic oil... and who can we thank for that?

2. April 2013, 22:16:20
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: "at the time" we had enough. Now we have more than enough. As we find more oil, our dependence on foreign oil increases... any thoughts as to why?
(V): The Chinese pollution problem is easy enough to fix, we'll just send our presently unoccupied occupy wall street protesters over to disrupt operations in China. And I will personally sent a strongly worded letter of protest. That alone should be enough to get results, but we should still send the protesters. The Chinese and the US manufacturers in China will have no choice but to shut down their manufacturing operations... permanently.

2. April 2013, 21:36:39
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: "at the time" we had enough. Now we have more than enough. As we find more oil, our dependence on foreign oil increases... any thoughts as to why?
(V): By the time that pollution reaches the west coast most of it is gone... dissipated in the air and washed from the sky into the pacific ocean. The only "pollution" we've had to deal with lately is debris from last years Japanese tsunami.

I saw something in the news about dust from a Chinese dust storm reaching the west coast... which is pretty remarkable, since dust from our own dust bowl disaster (before I was born) only made it as far as a few miles past the atlantic coastline.

2. April 2013, 20:01:13
(V) 
Emne: Re: "at the time" we had enough. Now we have more than enough. As we find more oil, our dependence on foreign oil increases... any thoughts as to why?
Iamon lyme: More to the point. Your air quality.... or is it just yours.... Asian pollution is impacting on your West coast, much of that pollution is from manufacturing plants contracted (as the labour is cheaper and regs less bothersome) to make your stuff for you... so, added onto your own home grown crap is stuff from Asia.

There is a nice island of plastic forming in the Pacific ocean.

2. April 2013, 17:46:11
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: "at the time" we had enough. Now we have more than enough. As we find more oil, our dependence on foreign oil increases... any thoughts as to why?
(V): "Seriously, that was just an avoidance answer."

Look who's talking. Avoid this... who is in control of air/water standards in China? The US, or China?

2. April 2013, 13:45:14
(V) 
Correction...

"No they are not, you are just using '''liberals''' as a scapegoat for everything that goes wrong in the USA."

Should read...

"No they are not, you are just using '''liberals''' as a scapegoat for everything that you think is wrong with the USA.

2. April 2013, 10:21:21
(V) 
Emne: Re: "at the time" we had enough. Now we have more than enough. As we find more oil, our dependence on foreign oil increases... any thoughts as to why?
Iamon lyme: It is?? The New York Times says any such increase is temporary and that US domestic production is up 10%

"No it isn't."

Yes it is. You think all those toppled governments by the CIA were just for the good of the people whose country it was?

"Yes they are."

No they are not, you are just using '''liberals''' as a scapegoat for everything that goes wrong in the USA.

"Yeah, and the US is also responsible for everything that happens in the UK. Seriously, grow up."

Seriously, that was just an avoidance answer. 0 points for that. I'll give points if you can tell me what new man made island exists? Or what state is reporting pollutants from China via the Jet Stream?

2. April 2013, 06:30:56
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: This is a contradiction for which I have never heard a reasonable explanation. How can anyone justify saying we want someone elses oil when we have more than enough of our own?
(V): "You didn't at the time."

"at the time" we had enough. Now we have more than enough. As we find more oil, our dependence on foreign oil increases... any thoughts as to why?


"It is true."

No it isn't.

"Are they?"

Yes they are.


"The US has one of the best if not the best records for clean air and water standards of any other nation."

[ Do you? Including or excluding pollution from China based firms manufacturing goods for American companies to sell to the world?? ]

Yeah, and the US is also responsible for everything that happens in the UK. Seriously, grow up.

1. April 2013, 12:45:00
(V) 
Emne: Re: This is a contradiction for which I have never heard a reasonable explanation. How can anyone justify saying we want someone elses oil when we have more than enough of our own?
Iamon lyme: You didn't at the time.

"We don't go to war to gain control over someone elses oil, but just for the sake of argument let's assume this is true."

It is true.

"what is the liberal's explanation for effectively making us dependent on foreign oil? Liberals in this country are responsible for stopping oil companies from drilling."

Are they?

"The US has one of the best if not the best records for clean air and water standards of any other nation."

Do you? Including or excluding pollution from China based firms manufacturing goods for American companies to sell to the world??

"We weren't arguing about religion... we were laughing at liberals."

I was laughing at both conservatives and liberals in the USA on this one... It's just alll stoooopid imo. :)

1. April 2013, 08:33:49
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re:We have Spring Break, and Easter here as well. Or if your in New York, it's Spring Break and Spring Holiday (they forgot that Holiday mean Holy Day)
(V): "I think you guys need to stop arguing about religion so much in the USA."

Who's arguing about religion?

A boy was suspended from school for nibbling a pop tart in the shape of a gun. The size of soft drinks have been limited in New York because the mayor is concerned about how much sugar people get. Football players won't be allowed to drop their heads anymore when rushing down the field, because they might hurt someone... with their heads. Apparently it's better if their heads are vulnerable when rushing down the field. Can't play dodge ball anymore??? I played dodge ball when I was a kid, it was a blast. How can you get hurt by a soft rubber ball? I think schools should ban pencils, and compasses with their sharp metal points... no one can stab you with a soft rubber ball.

The list goes on and on and on. Liberals take all of their silly ideas very seriously, including what we should and shouldn't say. We shouldn't say Merry Christmas, we should say Happy Holidays. AD pointed out that the word holiday (probably the origin of the word) means Holy day, so we shouldn't be surprised if one day liberals decide we must stop saying 'holiday'.

We weren't arguing about religion... we were laughing at liberals.

1. April 2013, 07:15:01
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re:So often the powers go overboard without considering the unintended consequences.
(V): I don't get this "for the sake of oil" argument. If liberals are so distraught over what they say is US effort to grab oil from other countries, then why do they resist US efforts to access it's own oil?

This is a contradiction for which I have never heard a reasonable explanation. How can anyone justify saying we want someone elses oil when we have more than enough of our own?

We don't want control over 'their' oil, we want control over OUR oil. The most recent estimates show our own sources at least matches (and might exceed) how much middle eastern oil is available.

We don't go to war to gain control over someone elses oil, but just for the sake of argument let's assume this is true... what is the liberal's explanation for effectively making us dependent on foreign oil? Liberals in this country are responsible for stopping oil companies from drilling, and have resisted the building of new refineries, so if anyone is responsible for what they call a 'war for oil' it would be be them.

If they think the US goes to war just to get control over someone elses oil, then I can't think of a better way to solve that problem than by allowing the US to access it's own oil. Liberals may be able to have it both ways (restrict drilling and claim war for oil) but they can't adequately explain any of this away with so called environmental concerns... that's BS. The US has one of the best if not the best records for clean air and water standards of any other nation. So if a clean environment is what they are really concerned about, they should go grip about it to countries who don't care how much pollutant they pile into the air.

31. Marts 2013, 21:51:27
(V) 
To: George W. Bush and Dick Cheney
From: Tomas Young

I write this letter on the 10th anniversary of the Iraq War on behalf of my fellow Iraq War veterans. I write this letter on behalf of the 4,488 soldiers and Marines who died in Iraq. I write this letter on behalf of the hundreds of thousands of veterans who have been wounded and on behalf of those whose wounds, physical and psychological, have destroyed their lives. I am one of those gravely wounded. I was paralyzed in an insurgent ambush in 2004 in Sadr City. My life is coming to an end. I am living under hospice care.

I write this letter on behalf of husbands and wives who have lost spouses, on behalf of children who have lost a parent, on behalf of the fathers and mothers who have lost sons and daughters and on behalf of those who care for the many thousands of my fellow veterans who have brain injuries. I write this letter on behalf of those veterans whose trauma and self-revulsion for what they have witnessed, endured and done in Iraq have led to suicide and on behalf of the active-duty soldiers and Marines who commit, on average, a suicide a day. I write this letter on behalf of the some 1 million Iraqi dead and on behalf of the countless Iraqi wounded. I write this letter on behalf of us all—the human detritus your war has left behind, those who will spend their lives in unending pain and grief.

I write this letter, my last letter, to you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney. I write not because I think you grasp the terrible human and moral consequences of your lies, manipulation and thirst for wealth and power. I write this letter because, before my own death, I want to make it clear that I, and hundreds of thousands of my fellow veterans, along with millions of my fellow citizens, along with hundreds of millions more in Iraq and the Middle East, know fully who you are and what you have done. You may evade justice but in our eyes you are each guilty of egregious war crimes, of plunder and, finally, of murder, including the murder of thousands of young Americans—my fellow veterans—whose future you stole.

Your positions of authority, your millions of dollars of personal wealth, your public relations consultants, your privilege and your power cannot mask the hollowness of your character. You sent us to fight and die in Iraq after you, Mr. Cheney, dodged the draft in Vietnam, and you, Mr. Bush, went AWOL from your National Guard unit. Your cowardice and selfishness were established decades ago. You were not willing to risk yourselves for our nation but you sent hundreds of thousands of young men and women to be sacrificed in a senseless war with no more thought than it takes to put out the garbage.

I joined the Army two days after the 9/11 attacks. I joined the Army because our country had been attacked. I wanted to strike back at those who had killed some 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I did not join the Army to go to Iraq, a country that had no part in the September 2001 attacks and did not pose a threat to its neighbors, much less to the United States. I did not join the Army to “liberate” Iraqis or to shut down mythical weapons-of-mass-destruction facilities or to implant what you cynically called “democracy” in Baghdad and the Middle East. I did not join the Army to rebuild Iraq, which at the time you told us could be paid for by Iraq’s oil revenues. Instead, this war has cost the United States over $3 trillion. I especially did not join the Army to carry out pre-emptive war. Pre-emptive war is illegal under international law. And as a soldier in Iraq I was, I now know, abetting your idiocy and your crimes. The Iraq War is the largest strategic blunder in U.S. history. It obliterated the balance of power in the Middle East. It installed a corrupt and brutal pro-Iranian government in Baghdad, one cemented in power through the use of torture, death squads and terror. And it has left Iran as the dominant force in the region. On every level—moral, strategic, military and economic—Iraq was a failure. And it was you, Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, who started this war. It is you who should pay the consequences.

I would not be writing this letter if I had been wounded fighting in Afghanistan against those forces that carried out the attacks of 9/11. Had I been wounded there I would still be miserable because of my physical deterioration and imminent death, but I would at least have the comfort of knowing that my injuries were a consequence of my own decision to defend the country I love. I would not have to lie in my bed, my body filled with painkillers, my life ebbing away, and deal with the fact that hundreds of thousands of human beings, including children, including myself, were sacrificed by you for little more than the greed of oil companies, for your alliance with the oil sheiks in Saudi Arabia, and your insane visions of empire.

I have, like many other disabled veterans, suffered from the inadequate and often inept care provided by the Veterans Administration. I have, like many other disabled veterans, come to realize that our mental and physical wounds are of no interest to you, perhaps of no interest to any politician. We were used. We were betrayed. And we have been abandoned. You, Mr. Bush, make much pretense of being a Christian. But isn’t lying a sin? Isn’t murder a sin? Aren’t theft and selfish ambition sins? I am not a Christian. But I believe in the Christian ideal. I believe that what you do to the least of your brothers you finally do to yourself, to your own soul.

My day of reckoning is upon me. Yours will come. I hope you will be put on trial. But mostly I hope, for your sakes, that you find the moral courage to face what you have done to me and to many, many others who deserved to live. I hope that before your time on earth ends, as mine is now ending, you will find the strength of character to stand before the American public and the world, and in particular the Iraqi people, and beg for forgiveness.

31. Marts 2013, 21:18:41
(V) 
Emne: Re:We have Spring Break, and Easter here as well. Or if your in New York, it's Spring Break and Spring Holiday (they forgot that Holiday mean Holy Day)
Artful Dodger: I think you guys need to stop arguing about religion so much in the USA.

It's like a long Greek tragedy, where at stake is the answer to the question of the current position of the electrons around a single molecule of water held on the end of a feather balanced on the end of a pin in a vacuum, under a glass dome.

31. Marts 2013, 21:10:07
(V) 
Emne: Re:So often the powers go overboard without considering the unintended consequences.
Artful Dodger: Yeah... What would Iran be like if the Imperial forces of the west (in this case the USA and UK) hadn't deposed a democratically elected good guy and placed their puppet the Shah of Persia in his place... for the sake of oil that was not theirs.

But someone had signed a piece of paper that it was, and not the people of Iran.

60 years on and people of Iran are still getting killed over this decision.

Is it because BP is British you say Liberals screw everything.. Iran.. The Gulf of Mexico.

After all... they are defined as being people too, companies that is... to be correct an artificial person. Not a Natural person though... that is reserved for humans only.

31. Marts 2013, 04:28:04
Iamon lyme 
__ __
( o) ( 0)


<><<

31. Marts 2013, 04:24:06
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re:
Artful Dodger: shhhhhhh, don't tell them what it means! Big brother might be watching.

<><<

30. Marts 2013, 23:53:47
Papa Zoom 
Emne: Re:
(V): We have Spring Break, and Easter here as well. Or if your in New York, it's Spring Break and Spring Holiday (they forgot that Holiday mean Holy Day)


30. Marts 2013, 23:50:02
Papa Zoom 
Emne: Re:You can't fix stupid.
rod03801: Liberals in America ruin everything.

30. Marts 2013, 23:49:25
Papa Zoom 
Emne: Re:You can't fix stupid.
(V): So often the powers go overboard without considering the unintended consequences.

30. Marts 2013, 22:36:15
(V) 
Hot Cross Bun anyone?

30. Marts 2013, 22:33:32
(V) 
.... and there you have a contradiction.

The UK is supposed to be more 'liberal' and/or 'socialist'.... Yet everyone says "Happy Easter"... schools.. no problem. Displays... no problem. Churches advertising Easter service or activities thereof to help keep the kids entertained.... no problem.

And it's Easter Holiday and end of the spring term at the same time Art here!! ;P

30. Marts 2013, 17:19:38
rod03801 
Emne: Re:You can't fix stupid.
Artful Dodger: Yup that dodge ball thing is here in New Hampshire. There is currently a petition going around to overturn the new rule.

Our state used to be reasonable until all the libs started moving in.

30. Marts 2013, 11:29:57
(V) 
Emne: Re:You can't fix stupid.
Artful Dodger: ... A school in the UK banned triangular shaped flapjack after a kid got hit in the eye during a food fight. They say that it's point is more dangerous than the corners on square or rectangular flapjack.

..... what everyone else is saying.. don't be ridiculous, and maybe you should look at how this food fight was allowed to start instead of blaming the injury on triangular flapjack.

A company spokesman declared that it cannot communicate with a regional office in the matter of transferring paperwork.

.... they were reminded that there is a postal service in the UK, soon after the paperwork appeared.

.... Honey, has a best before date.

30. Marts 2013, 03:51:14
Papa Zoom 
Emne: Re:You can't fix stupid.
(V): I try! In New York (at some school) you can't say "Easter" as in Easter Bunny or Easter break or Easter eggs. It's Spring Break (I'm ok with that) and Spring Bunny (WTH????) And Spring Eggs????

Stupid school administrators.

In another school, dodge ball has been banned because 5 parents complained. I say put the parents in the middle of the dodge ball circle and pummel the (beep) out of them with the dodge balls. Head shots permitted (since they aren't using them anyway).

Here's a solution for those that don't like the game dodge ball: don't play.l

29. Marts 2013, 21:06:50
(V) 
Emne: Re: Irrelevant
Iamon lyme: Well..... I don't see you doing anything than making straw man arguments.

29. Marts 2013, 21:04:41
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: Irrelevant
(V): "Meaningless."

LOL

29. Marts 2013, 20:55:12
(V) 
Emne: Re: Irrelevant
Iamon lyme: Meaningless.

29. Marts 2013, 20:51:32
Iamon lyme 
Emne: Re: Irrelevant
(V): Why stop with Reagan and Bush? Lincoln trampled over the rights of law abiding slave owners, and Washington defied the king when he fought against British troops. It all started in 1,000,000 BC when Ogg took Ugh as his mate from a neighboring clan, thinking it would end strife between the two clans. But the plan backfired, and it only worked to create more resentment and greater animosity between the two clans. So Ogg took Pew as another mate from a smaller third clan, to shore up his strength if the two major clans ever came to blows. This too was a mistake, because the third lesser clan decided to align itself with Oggs enemy.

Ogg traveled many days to reach the largest clan in recorded prehistoric history, and took Ick as a mate after striking a deal with that clans leader... Icks father. But Ogg never received any support from him after Ogg came home with Ick... he called and left messages, but Icks father never got back to him. Before it was all over the political landscape was a mess, and Ogg had seven mates fighting among themselves for his attention...
Oh well, pooka happens.

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