created just for fun. please look at my tournaments Chess EXPERIMENTS and tell me if you like them. There are 3 Tournaments so far ...
Regards,
Origami.

[... and the direct links are:
DIRTY DOZEN
COURIER and his HORSE
CUT THROAT on 47th
WQ :]

It is with regret that I have to advise that one person has taken exception to the selection process for recent post deletions so I feel obliged to delete a few more. Personally, I think they were acceptable observations and comments, but some seem to think that the competition over the board should be carried on in this board with personal point scoring the aim. I did not view the posts I left as falling into this category (the ones I did were deleted in the first round) but to be even more than fair the others have gone too. I apologise to the posters but I hope you can see the dilemma.

Needless to say, a precedence has now been set which will be applied into the future. Should you wish to purvey the deletions I expect there are those who have (and have a reputation for) kept a copy ... you might seek there.

Cheers ... with all our best intents intact

WhisperzQ

Chessmaster1000: Cool analysis, thanks ! I like the first variation (21. ... Nh4+) with nothing left on white's king side :-).

At least I know that I could have won :-). I did not see the beginning of this as I kind of routinely thought that after 19. ... Nxh2 white can play 20.Kd2 with no trouble for him. Obviously I should have looked better.

Chessmaster1000: I see Tarrasch is your idol,
but I truely believe in Lasker ... best move ... ... ~*~

Pafl: I used 2 engines for helping in my short analysis, for checking my ideas and to find some new ones too......: Ikarus V0.18 and my favourite CM9000-JudgeII.
The JudgeII found a way for winning but Ikarus also had some good ideas..........

So the "party" for black begins with 19...Nxh2! instead of 19...e4?
After it white has to play 20.Ke1 and then 20...Nf3+ 21.Kd1 which is forced.
Then there are 2 moves:

21...Nh4+ 22.Kd2 Qf2+ 23.Kc3 Qxg3 and black has 2 Pawns more and a win is reachable........(The continuation 24.Rg1 Qf3 25.Bxf7?! Qxf7 26.Rxg4 Qf6!? winning a Pawn back is not good, as white has huge problems in the Kingside due to possible advance of black Pawns with h5, but the most important is that black can play Nf3 and then e4 is killing....)

21...0-0-0 and now there are 3 choices for white:

** 22.Nc3 and then 22...Qc6! and white has many problems to solve so he can't survive........

** 22.Na3 and then 22...h5! and black has a very dangerous attack and a very cramped position [edit]for white[/edit].........There are too many threats!
After 23.c3 (for letting the King escape via c2) there is 23...Ng5+ 24.Kc2 Qf2+ 25.Qd2 Qxg3 26.Rg1 Qf3 -+

** 22.Ne2 and then 22...Qc6! -+ Black is winning clearly!

danoschek: Actually i know that 3...g6 is the best move..............but in this early stage of opening 3...Qe7 is playable too of course...........

Pafl: eheh ! I don't own my bilguer anymore but I believe
to remember that Qe7 had an exclamation mark in there ... ~*~

danoschek: Is 3. ... Qe7 classical ? Didn't know that ! You don't get much of this opening in the books :-)

Pafl: The suggested 10) ... Nf5 seems more powerful at first sight indeed ...
I wouldn't have come into that line since I'd play 3) ... Qe7 in the classical way.
Looking forward to s . chessmaster's analysis, - nice playground for programs. ... ~*~

I saw you game and i have some ideas that would surely lead you to the win.......I will verify my ideas with a computer program and i will post tomorrow......

chessmec: Thanks chessmec, you are probably right. I guess I made the sacrifice because my opponent played a horrible opening and I kind of felt urged to "punish" him :-)

The red pen has been out and the matter is now settled so a continuation of the flaming is not required. I have left what I think is necessary to follow the constructive conversation but suggest that further debate on one or another's prowess be pursued elsewhere.

Thank you

WhisperzQ :)

Pafl: I think 10... Nd4-f5 should be better instead of 10... Be7-h4.
What now? After 11.0-0 Nxe3 and after 11.Qd2 Bg5 - blacks position should be better

Hi everyone, I would like your advice on this ... I have played this game against Jokl. In the 10th move I sacrified a piece because It lookeded like it will give me a strong attack. However, in the 25th move I eventually had to force a draw by eternal check. Was there something that I missed (and could have won) or was the sacrifice in the 10th move incorrect ?? Thanks for your opinion.

Matarilevich: What game are you refering to? How can you be so certain that far into the future?

AbigailII: Ah, that's the thing. Who determines that the position is a draw? The players do, right? Don't you see a conflict of interest in this during a tournament? If agreed to draws are allowed, I believe some of the power to have them should be taken from the players involved. Have it go to a tribunal and change the procedure for asking for a draw. Instead of asking your opponent for a draw, you make the announcement it is a draw and have the tournament draw tribunal check your game out as it continues to be played. Or you be required to play more moves or you demonstrate that your opponent can't win the game. Whether or not you can win is no longer your concern. I'd certainly no longer allow the person asking for a draw to be allowed to win the game if his draw is turned down. Just changing this aspect of asking for draws would discourage a lot of early draw offers. Their opponent would be free to decline and then would be able to play on knowing that they couldn't lose the game. This would make a draw offer happening only when the person was certain that he was right.

From what I understand of a game that Ed and Alex have going right now, Ed should've resigned or Alex should've accepted a draw a few moves back. Now, how can that be? I'm glad they're continuing the game until all doubt is removed, even if it's not being done in the most sportsmanlike manner.

Yes, players could purposely start repeating positions during a game to get their draw out of it. I'm sure that would require collusion and could be dealt with. Everything else in Chess is analyzed, a repeated position could come under more scrutiny if they started happening more.

Don't they have tournaments where the time is increased if more moves are needed and all the moves that were required to be made in the allotted have been made? I know there's plenty of tournaments that only give you so much time for the whole game regardless of how many moves the game takes, but it seems to me I've heard of tournaments where they give you a couple hours to make say 40 moves. If the game continues after the 40 moves have been made, they'd add time to the clock and get another move count going. I'm sure something could be worked out if time was a problem caused by changing the draw rules. If it was harder to get draws, I'm thinking games would be played tougher and the players wouldn't plan on an easy game knowing they couldn't expect to hold there own and then offer a draw at the opportune time. That should make the Chess better too.

Your question of me about playing 'til being mated isn't easy to answer and has nothing to do with draws. So I'll not address it now. When you resign, you get zero for a score. A draw can get you zero or a half point depending on the rules of the match or tournament. When it's nothing, as I've seen them do in two player matches, is the percentage of draws the same as when the same two players play each other when the draws count as a half point? And how 'bout when different players are compared? I'd think the ratio would be the same, but perhaps there is a difference. Anybody know?

Sorry but after 17...Kh8 the mate is in 47.5 moves :)

may occur with equally strong opponents ... as most chessplayers here know, I usually
try to make at least 40 moves which is about my impression of a full game, still I don't
dare to claim that personal approach as to be obligatory in a world of individuals. ~*~

Walter Montego: The whole idea of two players being able to know the outcome and so don't need to play it out is something I find wrong with Chess

Does that mean you refuse to resign in a lost position, but keep playing till you're mated?

I fail to see why playing on when both players agree the position is draw should be required. Who benefits from that? Furthermore, in modern chess, time control is limited. To reach a position that is drawn by the rules, one might have to play an extra 100 moves. Which might mean ending the game with rapid or blitz.

Of course, if both players agree on a draw, but it's forbidden to "agree on a draw", they could just repeat the position three times, and claim a draw.

ughaibu: This shogi sounds like a fun and challenging game. I've heard a few people talk about it. Chess type game played by millions in Asia I've been told. Perhaps it'll get on this site eventually and I can give it a try. redsales says he plays it too.

Drawing must've evolved differently in the Chess playing traditions of the two games. The whole idea of two players being able to know the outcome and so don't need to play it out is something I find wrong with Chess. I know if I sponsored tournaments that I'd insist on having a change in the draw rule when it came to agreed draws. Of course with F.I.D.E. in control of Chess, it's their way, or the highway.

In shogi draws can not be agreed. Perpetual check loses for the checking player and stalemate, of course, loses for the dead king. As a consequence I've never played a draw in shogi and that's over about 25 years. Professionals play about one draw by repetition in every fifty games and about one jishogi in every two hundred plus. In any case all draws are replayed with switched colours and the remaining time.

danoschek: [post edited WQ] I wonder why though? How'd draws ever come to be seen as an acceptable outcome for a game? If the game is truly that evenly played, then a draw it is. I think allowing players to agree to draws while there's still a chance for one side or the other to win is wrong. If anything, I'd require more moves to be made before an agreed to draw is allowed, but I think eliminating them except for the ways I said earlier plus stalemates would be the way to lower the number of draws without changing the rules of Chess.

I see that you have draws in Backgammon and Pente. How is it possible to have a draw in either one of those games when it can't happen if played by the rules that I know?

Montego: [post deleted WQ]~*~

I think draws that are agreed to should not be allowed, period. The only allowed draws should be where it could be shown that neither side can win, like insufficient force, perpetual check, repeated positions, or by stating one's line of play and the tournament director agreeing to it being a draw. Agreed to draws just make it easy for both players and allow shenanigans to happen in tournaments by letting some players advance to the next round without having to really play some games.
Yeah, I've heard the bit about they'd be wasting their time by playing it out, but I sure don't see the point in playing if you're not even going to play the game in the first place.

Making this simple change would certainly lower the number of draws in Chess that I hear people complaining about all the time, and it wouldn't change Chess in any of the ways as I've seen some other ideas for changing the draw rules would.

EdTrice: white gives up a piece that is never recovered again, something computers usually do not do.

In this case many (the 40% of around 40 programs i tried) engines play your move in a time between 20 seconds to 2 minutes, with a positive score. Especially Deep-Junior 8.ZX and Junior 7 are very happy with the position after the double sacrifice.......

After 17...Kh8 there is still a mate in 51 moves.

I don't know if you are joking here, but no program or human can announce such a thing correctly, from this position.......
My opinion is that it's not only wrong that there is a mate for white, but that white is not even winning. Although i see an advantage for white it is definitely not an easy task to win..........

How will you continue in my 3 lines after Kh8.....? Do you have any refutation?

No!
After 18...Ra5? we have 19.Rxe6! fxe6 20.Ne5!
and white is winning big..........

18...Nh5? seems a mistake for me.Perhaps better 18... Ra5!?
For example 19. Ne5 Nh7 20. Re3 and after 20..Bh4!? Shredder 9 gives a small advantage for Black.(-0,60)

EdTrice: Remember what I wrote: "But without using comuter aid?"
That was a question - not a general ascertainment!
By the way: My question was a leading question.

I am not a "computer expert" in chess programs. I do not know what is passible to search with a program. Maybe someone can tell me.

For all of you who think you can lob such general comments as "this was a computer game", let me point out a few things.

1. Since so many people were making snide comments about the Double Muzio game posted on here, where there is a sacrifice of first a knight and then a bishop, I decided I would go after Alex and try to win a game using the same theme: offering the sacrifice of a knight and bishop, just to emphasize the point. I mentioned this to ChessCarpenter long ago.

2. Look at the position here:

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=21

We can go back all the way to a Reshevsky game where the pawn push c4 is played (although much earlier in the game) to give white the slight edge in the opening. I studied the game, and elected not to do so, since a well timed ...d5 by black will equalize in the early stages and actually convey a slight advantage by the onset of the middlegame. So, the hunt was on not just for a "substitute move" but a new plan.

At this point in the game, move 11, I decided to play a non-traditional, strategic move, for the sole purpose of securing the queenside pawn structure (making it virtually bullet proof) and then tasking the knight to go on a long trip from the queenside to the kingside via d2 instead of c3.

3. The actual attack begins with a maneuver here:

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=25

Inspiration came from the King's Indian Attack, another opening I like when playing as white. Three consecutive Knight moves get the Knight into position, and I thought at this point "clearly black sees what I am doing here", so I thought I would "give away" my plan.

4. white gives up a piece that is never recovered again, something computers usually do not do.

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=31

5. I complete my earlier objective, now offering a Bishop as sacrifice after having already parted with a Knight.

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=33

6. And now here, 33 plies after 10. Nbd2 is played, we are still in a position where white is down a Rook for 2 pawns.

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067&i=51

I would like all of you "computer experts" to tell me, how long would it take a program to search 33 plies from move 10 of the game? 1 day? 3 days? 10 days? How about 2 to the 12th days if there is a branching factor of 2 and you can complete a 21 ply search in 1 day.

4097 days of search would be required to play this line with a program starting from move 10.

After 17...Kh8 there is still a mate in 51 moves.

And, if chessmec would have gone over the game in more detail, he would have found this is a completely new handling of the Petroff from a strategic viewpoint, something beyond the capabilities of any computer.

I suppose when I won my game against the Deep Thought program in 1989 I was "praying to God" to whisper moves into my ear?

chessmec: Many, many moons ago, when I was a clubplayer, we always played with the rules that you weren't allowed to offer a draw twice, without a draw offer from the opponent in between.

But I can't find that rule in the FIDE laws of chess. However, I did find the following rule:

12.6 It is forbidden to distract or annoy the opponent in any matter whatsoever. This includes unreasonable claims or unreasonable offers of a draw.

Failure to comply with this rule can be punished by anything from a warning to expulsion from the event. (Articles 12.7 and 13.4).

Chess Laws

redsales: I do not know how the rules about offering draws continuosly in "real" chess. I played in a tournament in real chess years ago and my opponent offered a draw every move since the first. OK, it was easy for me, turning off my hearing aids :-) but the tournament boss recognized the continuos offer and declared the game won for me - due to unsportsmanlike behaviour.
Here in brainking i played a game in which was offered a draw every move and between the moves. My opponent did not recognize my warnings and i told it fencer ...

And what about the game EdTric against Alex? I studied it for some minutes, ok, beautiful. But without using comuter aid?

I would not say that white has the edge. I would say that white will be slightly better.......(Perhaps i'm wrong of course!)

i agree with chessmaster1000 blacks game had errors 17..Kg8?? 17.. Kh8 gives black some play but white still has the edge I would welcome the views of other top players

Nice game......! Some comments:

13...a5?! What was this move for..........? Perhaps it even deserved a "?".

15...Bxf5 and the attack has to wait. White is better though.....

17...Kg8? Hmmm, i would definitely played 17...Kh8 and i think there is a game after this. White would be better but he would not be winning.
After 17...Kg8 game is over..............

After 17...Kh8 if:

18.Rxe6 fxe6 19.Ng5 Qd7 20.Qf3 Bd8 21.Bg6 e5 22.Nf7 Kg8 with a small advantage for white......

18.Qc1 Ng8! and white has to find a way to attack.......(19.Qf4 Nd5 and then Ndf6 and black would have many defenders....(for example 20.Qe4 Ndf6 21.Qh4 Ng4 22.Bg5+ 23.Rxe6 fxe6 24.Qe4 Nf5 25.Qxe6 Rf8! with unclear game))

18.Qd2 Ng8 (or even Nh5) and white is not much better but just has a chance for an attack........
After 19.Qf4 we have the same position with 18.Qc1.

http://brainking.com/en/ArchivedGame?g=532067
Ed Trice has been getting unfair harassment of late ,therefore i would like all players to view this brilliant game, its the best that i have seen for a long time, I believe Ed has proved he is our No 1 player

im lost now where u 2?

well what do u play u go and invite me im new to this lol

indeed - he's the first one online ever who
played the b3 variation in the vulture sound and
is giving me a hard time of abyss walk ... ... ~*~ .

I created a tournament chess starting with 1st may 2005. Here: >http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?trg=6658&trnst=0


I hope this will get a strong tournament and help to check out who is the best :-)

If you want to join, please send me a message!

Matarilevich: That`s for sure!

Mely, Oliottavio, Ughaibu, Caissus, redsales, 529 are among the best chessplayers. These players can lost games but they would never make a fool themselves at this way.

Matarilevich:... but without chessrating.
Best chessplayer we have here is probably Mely.

I think the best player is Caoz, see the statistics. [Snip - positive comments only please! WQ :]

A tournament has been created to honor Mr. Ed Trice:

http://brainking.com/game/Tournaments?trg=8217

Let's hope Mr. Trice joins. His intelligence and courage will be a a great asset in this endeavour.

Enough thank you ... let's move on (haha) ... Ed is quite right, he may move at whatever speed he desires so long as it meets the game's conditions. Sportsmanship is often subjective and contests are not always won just with the pieces on the board, but in this case let us just watch and see ... if an earlier estimation is correct that might be around about May next year. Further posts on this matter will probably be deleted.

Don´t ask draw repeatedly. It´s not correct. A good chessplayer would not continue in this position in a normal circumstances.

"You dont hear me crying about it", maybe not but I've just read it.

A player may move within the allotted time given for a game, no matter what.

Bad sportsmanship might be better defined as one player calling to the attention of others something along these lines.

My opponent has used inappropriate name-calling and taunting during the course of our play. This is how I elect to respond.

I did give him 2 pieces at the beginning of the game

http://brainking.com/game/ShowGame?g=415627&i=16

How much of a handicap did he thinks he needs?

And if this game was so "easy" why has he take a week or more to make moves on occasion? I was moving faster than him through much of this game.

Look at my game with Reza in the same tournament section, for example.

http://brainking.com/game/ShowGame?g=415628

I have an easy win against him in that game, and he has made fewer moves than my opponent (only 26).

You don't hear me crying about it.

Caissus:
Bad sportsmanship and intentional delaying of lost games shows the true character of the player and should not be tolarated!

Actually since he has the right to play whenever he wants, this is completely acceptable......