alanback: Don't know about the pawn thing.

grenv:  If you edit and delete all the text, the message will be deleted.

Thad:  The double probably threw the autopass out of whack.  I wouldn't worry about it, just sit back and collect your winnings.  Maybe he'll get what he deserves for that double, and you'll gammon him ;-)

Hrqls:  Gnu doesn't give explanations!  All it can tell you is (according to its algorithms) which move produces the most wins ... assuming both players play like gnu.  PlayBunny's explanation is as good as you are going to find.

playBunny:  If I read that right, the hit is better?  Cool, thanks.

playBunny:  It's differences of opinion that make horse races!

Why don't you ask gnu?

Hrqls:  Took me a minute to figure out that the 4-2 wasn't your roll.

I agree with Czuch, there's nothing to be gained by hitting.  You're already well ahead in the race and you have no board.  Your one goal is to get past his back men, and hitting makes that harder, not easier.  Unless like you he rolls double aces and dances against a one point board ...

playBunny:  I agreee that GamesGrid is the gold standard for real time play, and Dailygammon is the unchallenged leader for turn-based.

Andersp:  On reflection, I might prefer to consider myself thoughtful rather than sophisticated.  playBunny is sophisticated.  

Andersp:  If it is seen as a problem that higher rated players don't want to play
against lower rated players, then one solution is to improve the
ratings system.  The BKR system penalizes higher rated players harshly for playing against lower rated players.  A properly designed ratings system should not discourage higher rated players from playing against lower rated players, as the BKR system does.  Of course, the higher rated players should always prefer longer matches.  

Andersp:  Only sophisticated enough to know that the BKR system doesn't work well for backgammon :-)

Czuch:  I should have said, "between players of equal rating".  In other words, if match length is the only determinant, then longer matches produce larger adjustments, since the skill factor is greater in a longer match.

Your observation about the effect of a likely win is what I meant when I said

"Where there is a difference between player ratings, the positive
adjustment from a win is greater for the lower-rated player than for
the higher-rated player.  Conversely, the higher-rated player suffers a
greater negative adjustment if he loses than the lower-rated player
would."

Andersp:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sophisticated

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/backgammon

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/player

Czuch:  Using the FIBS formula as an example, because it is widely accepted, there are two variables -- match length and the difference between player ratings.  Between players of equal strength, the longer the match, the greater the point adjustment.  Where there is a difference between player ratings, the positive adjustment from a win is greater for the lower-rated player than for the higher-rated player.  Conversely, the higher-rated player suffers a greater negative adjustment if he loses than the lower-rated player would.

Longer matches produce smaller point adjustments if the higher rated player wins, but larger adjustments if the lower-rated player wins.

nabla:  In my view, assigning a project a priority so low that it never gets done is the same as refusing to do it!  Obviously I believe it deserves a higher priority, since the site is crippled as a backgammon site without it.

If you read playBunny's profile and see the reference to Dailygammon, you might wonder why the average quality of play here is relatively low.  I think an important reason is that many good players won't play under the BKR system.

tonyh:  That's kind of a sore point for the more sophisticated backgammon players among us.  Nearly every other backgammon site has a rating system that reflects the reality that multiple point matches are a better test of skill than one-point matches.  However, Fencer has refused to implement such a system here.

wetware: Not rules, just rules of thumb, which in any case are no substitute for careful consideration of the position :-)

Maybe it's also time to do something that will allow Backgammon Race and Crowded Backgammon players to distinguish between pieces on the bar that started out there, and pieces that have been placed there after being hit.

Timeout

My opponent timed out, having already borne off 1 checker.  (Let's ignore my incredibly hopeless position for the moment.)  I was trailing in the match 1-0 before that happened. Now the match score is given as 3-1.  It appears that the server awarded me 3 points when I should have had at most 1. 

Puckish:I think it's a little paranoid to assume that's the only possible explanation. I will often put a game aside when there is a difficult decision to make.  That's frequently the occasion for me to go to bed and think about it when I'm fresh.

nabla:  Why resign and give him the ratings boost he wants, if this is true?

nabla:  I am not! Oh, nevermind, I thought you said "with" ...

nabla:  If he's using a bot, why doesn't he play better?

Puckish:  Can't right now, I have a vacation coming up.  But thanks for the personal invitation!

Thad:  It's not useless - it tells you the match is not finished ;-)

Czuch:  I agree, only I should be allowed to be condescending, sarcastic, and modestly annoying.

playBunny:  I think we're not supposed to wake the sleeping webmaster ;-)

Czuch:  Jeez, so now Fencer is responsible for your mental health too?

Czuch: Now that's just paranoia!

Thad:  Neither better no worse, for me.  If most people think it would be better with the dice revealed, as a matter of customer service they should be revealed.

playBunny:  Hardly a word game; the unfortunate thing is that I am trying to express in words that which is only knowable by direct experience.  Certainly the need for gratification exists in the universe we experience on an everyday level, but it does not exist in Spirit.  My point was that gratification and the need for it are experienced only because of the illusion of separation from All That Is.  Off topic, I suppose.

My original crack about postponing gratification was meant just to call people's attention to what was going on in their own heads.

Thad:  I suppose the only thing to say is that there is more than one opinion as to whether the game would be "more fun".

playBunny:  The need for gratification is not a given, it is a creation of the egoic mind and ceases when understood as such.

playBunny:  Ah, but the desirability of seeing the dice -- and the felt need for a change in the current system -- arises only from the need for immediate gratification.  Gratification implies a need that is to be gratified.  If the need did not exist, the issue would not arise.
No question of justification was involved, merely an observation. 

alanback:  Of course, on Dailygammon it's even better, because you get to see your opponent's moves before they are made.

playBunny:  IMHO it's a silly thing to be concerned about, but if most people want it, it should be implemented.

Just more evidence of our inability to postpone gratification :-)

Czuch:  You dont get to see your opponents dice before he does, which seems quite appropriate.

playBunny et al:  All this reminds me of the story I once read about a utopian society that had only two rules:

1.  "Thou shalt not bother other people."

2.  "Thou shalt not be too easily bothered."

Andersp:  I've always thought it was bad manners to drag out a game that was mathematically lost.  But of course, if an opponent asks me to let the game finish, I will.

Etiquette, after all, is just a default set of rules to follow until you understand each other well enough to know what will offend and what will not.  It's not a substitute for friendship, but just something to smooth the path while friendship and camaraderie develop.

Czuch Czuckers:  It's rare to see so many unfounded assumptions built into such a short post, I congratulate you!

Czuch Czuckers:  Exactly.  Also, doubles on the average contain more pipcount than non-doubles, so there are more positions that can be ended by a double.

Czuch Czuckers:  Statistically, it seems that a double is relatively more likely to be the last roll of a game than a roll that is not a double.  That is, for example, double 2 will end more games (or at least more than half as many) than 5-3.  This is just an impression.

Thad:  I once did some statistical analysis on the dice rolls at ItsYourTurn because I was convinced they were skewed.  I had no luck proving this, as it turned out that the distribution of rolls was pretty close to random, with some slight bias for or against particular results.  I imagine you would find the same here.  I don't recall whether I did a systematic study of consecutive doubles.  I still have the database around somewhere.

Thad:  That's what I meant by monkey curiosity.  Sure, I have that too. But it isn't a compelling reason to see the dice.  Or to ask Fencer to do more programming when there other more important features that could be implemented.

Thad:  How?  

Thad:  I don't see any compelling reason for a player to be able to see his opponent's dice before the opponent moves.  It's nothing but monkey curiosity that makes us want to know what's going to happen next.  There's nothing we can do anyway, except maybe resign, and we can always do that when the turn comes back to us.

Thad:  There are perfectly good backgammon ratings systems already available.  FIBS and Dailygammon use the same formula, and it works great.

tippyc:A proper ratings system would make adjustments which reflect the probability of the outcome.  This in turn is a function of the relative strengths of the players and the length of the match.  The longer the match, the greater the probability that the stronger player will win.  Therefore, if the stronger player does win, the change in ratings should decrease with the length of the match.  If the weaker (i.e. lower-rated) player wins, then the change in ratings should increase with the length of the match.

Thad:  Don't even go there.  That's a closed subject here.

playBunny:  The protoype of all internet backgammon servers, FIBS (First Internet Backgammon Server) has always had several software toggles, including toggle double.  With doubling toggled off, the dice are rolled automatically each turn.  Another useful setting is toggle greedy, which if set on will cause the server to automatically bear off the maximum number of checkers in unambiguous situations.