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 Politics

Forum for discussing local and world politics and issues. All views are welcomed. Let your opinions be heard on current news and politics.


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13. listopadu 2009, 06:36:54
Artful Dodger 
61,911,000 Murdered: The Soviet Gulag State
35,236,000 Murdered: The Communist Chinese Ant Hill
20,946,000 Murdered: The Nazi Genocide State
10,214,000 Murdered: The Depraved Nationalist Regime
2,035,000 Murdered: The Khmer Rouge Hell State
1,883,000 Murdered: Turkey's Genocidal Purges
1,670,000 Murdered: The Vietnamese War State
1,585,000 Murdered: Poland's Ethnic Cleansing
1,503,000 Murdered: The Pakistani Cutthroat State
1,072,000 Murdered: Tito's Slaughterhouse

Do the math Ube. Even if you're right, (and you're not, you connect dots that aren't there) there is no comparison.

It's a far far different thing to get involved with another country to bring about political change, it's another to systematically murder millions upon millions of one's own citizens. Look at the history of the world and it's easy to see just how weak your argument really is. You've only shown how the US via the CIA (and likely the military at times) has involved itself with one government faction over another. Both factions were killing their own people. Hardly the direct fault of the US no matter how you try to spin it.

And fact mining can yield lots of data. It's the interpretation of the data that matters. Capitalism is an economic system that vastly differs from all others. It's not really a system at all but a lack of a system. In communism, people are forced to work for the State for the good of the State (and in extension, the good of the people). In Capitalism, people are free from the force of others. Capitalism itself doesn't force anything.

Communism OTOH, survives (when it does) at the end of a gun. Ultimately, it fails because it strips people of the individual dignity and keeps them in a state of forced work. Meanwhile the corrupt government officials skim off the top the choicest fruits of the work of others and dishes out the crumbs.

I'm not turning a blind eye to your copy and past marathon, it's just that your conclusion is faulty. You ignore the many other factors that interplay in such affairs and find a simplistic conclusion heavily based on your a priori judgment.

13. listopadu 2009, 11:28:29
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: Hardly the direct fault of the US no matter how you try to spin it.
Artful Dodger: And no matter how you spin it you cannot deny that the USA as well as other democratic western governments have stuck their nose in and helped and aided those they like... you called it the enemy of your enemy I believe.

This has included rather nasty people in the belief.. better dead then red is the old saying isn't it? Saying "we didn't do anything" is denial of the logistical and financial aide given to people to fight and kill perceived enemies of the west.

And I'm not saying communism (to use a loose term as it was just a disguised dictatorship scheme) is innocent, but neither is the west.

"Capitalism is an economic system that vastly differs from all others. It's not really a system at all but a lack of a system."

so was communism as under the USSR system. No real system to talk about as it didn't work.

13. listopadu 2009, 15:08:28
GTCharlie 
Subjekt: Re: Hardly the direct fault of the US no matter how you try to spin it.
(V): You're not a former protege of Kim Philby are you?Seriously you are right, but I don't believe there was a whole of people trying to escape to the Warsaw Pact, or scale the Berlin Wall to get into East Berlin or boat people trying to get in to Cuba. In fact the vast , huge, majority were and are trying to do the opposite. Of course maybe these masses are the "stupid majority"

13. listopadu 2009, 20:56:49
Artful Dodger 
Subjekt: Re: Hardly the direct fault of the US no matter how you try to spin it.

(V): "Artful Dodger: And no matter how you spin it you cannot deny that the USA as well as other democratic western governments have stuck their nose in and helped and aided those they like... you called it the enemy of your enemy I believe."


Actually I wouldn't deny this.  It's clear that the US has done just that.  For whatever National interests they used for an excuse, it's clear that the US was involved in more than one questionable foreign undertakings.


"Capitalism is an economic system that vastly differs from all others. It's not really a system at all but a lack of a system."

so was communism as under the USSR system. No real system to talk about as it didn't work.


Communism is more a political and social system whereas capitalism is economic.  Like anything, such can be abused and often is.  In Communism, abuse is the norm.  In Capitalism, no so. 


I suppose that one could argue that in a perfect Communist system all would benefit.  Or even in a dictatorship, if the dictator is a benevolent one, that could be a good thing. 


But where there are failings of the US foreign policies of the past or present, most of the blame can be leveled at the politics and attitudes of soverignty.  Likening communism with capitalism is just plain rubbish.


14. listopadu 2009, 12:17:08
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: Communism is more a political and social system whereas capitalism is economic.
Artful Dodger: Rubbish, at least not in the way we have it today.

"most of the blame can be levelled at the politics and attitudes of sovereignty."

I cannot agree, not when you've had the likes of the car industry approach Nixon to delay the introduction of seat belts and the wearing of.

Capitalism can become an ideology and as such the perceived needs to protect it can be over the top. And as such the Cold war was over the two systems. Communism or Capitalism. And then you have the big industry bosses creaming the public wallet or skipping on safety.

17. listopadu 2009, 07:06:32
Artful Dodger 
Subjekt: Re: Rubbish
(V):Double Rubbish

17. listopadu 2009, 09:22:25
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: Rubbish
Artful Dodger: I'd agree with you, if it were not that business does interfere with government. As such in the western world there is no real separation of the two. As such companies try to become 'brands' (such as coke).. talking of which.. Santa these days is wearing which companies colours?

Politicians relaying on contributions for their election campaigns from businesses. Sarah Palin got through alot of 'suits' in the last Republican campaign to be in power, didn't she .. do I need to get you to do an essay on the lobbying system?

17. listopadu 2009, 17:51:08
Artful Dodger 
Subjekt: Re: Rubbish

(V):   Of course businesses lobby the government.  Personally I wish it were against a law.  I disagree that there isn't a separation of the two.  I would agree that they can (and often are) closely linked.  And in some cases, the two do operate as if they are one. 


I don't see how Palin's suits have anything to do with the discussion.  Should she have gone naked?


17. listopadu 2009, 18:04:59
Bwild 
Subjekt: Re: Rubbish
Artful Dodger: Of course businesses lobby the government. Personally I wish it were against a law.

vote green
nader would abolish lobbying. hes run both his campagns on non-lobbist contributions

17. listopadu 2009, 19:12:37
Ferris Bueller 
Subjekt: "Should she have gone naked?"
Artful Dodger:   Yes.  That would have made things spicey & interesting.  I might have even considered voting for her. 

17. listopadu 2009, 20:27:46
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: Rubbish
Artful Dodger: As long as business can lobby government in the way yours can, combined with election funding... they are always going to be intertwined. It ain't just a USA thing, our government closed down an investigation in bribery as it would have cost a defence company a big contract.

As for Palin.. $250K wasn't it on campaign clothing... alot of dosh for campaign clothes that came from supporters BIG and small.

As for naked... interesting.. I wonder if birthday suit debates would get more honesty out of the politicians???

17. listopadu 2009, 20:29:37
Bwild 
Subjekt: Re: Rubbish
(V): birthday suit debates
might have been rough on Hilary! lol

17. listopadu 2009, 20:38:22
Ferris Bueller 
Subjekt: US election funding
(V):   Federal funding for election campaigns has been debated here to keep business & other lobbies out of the process.  There is some matching funds from the Feds, but participation is option.  But, full Fed funding will never fly here cause both parties "eat from the same troth" of big business & special interests.

17. listopadu 2009, 20:41:46
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: US election funding
Ferris Bueller: ... what's the policy on part political broadcasts in the states?

17. listopadu 2009, 22:13:03
Ferris Bueller 
Subjekt: Re: US election funding

(V):   If u are refering to political advertizing law.  The McCain-Feingold Act of 2002 set some restrictions on how much money could be donated for political ads.  But there are loopholes a mile wide.


Here is an article on maze of complex issues regarding this legislation with the court cases surrounding it.


http://www.politicaladvertisinglaw.com/


 


17. listopadu 2009, 22:44:37
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: US election funding
Ferris Bueller: Nahhh allocated space on TV for political broadcasts. Time here is limited so we don't end up with endless 'important messages'

18. listopadu 2009, 00:18:42
Ferris Bueller 
Subjekt: Re: US election funding
(V):   I don't think there are any such restrictions here if u have the money to pay for endless ads.  We are inundated w/ them every election cycle.

18. listopadu 2009, 09:10:49
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: US election funding
Ferris Bueller: Ouch... That is something we don't get. I think it's to do with fairness of representation.

19. listopadu 2009, 06:03:54
Ferris Bueller 
Subjekt: Re: US election funding

(V):   I agree w/ u.  But, here the mentality of our courts is that how you are able to spend your money constutes free speech.  In other words, regardless of whether funds raised are remotely even, candidates have the "right" to allocate their moneys however they see fit - that means any restriction placed upon time limits on commercial time being bought is considered a violation of free speech.


I think this particular mentality is rediculous & has nothing to do with individual free speech as an "inalienable" human right.


19. listopadu 2009, 09:07:24
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: US election funding
Ferris Bueller: It is crazy, party's can quite easily say their peace and get their message across in a couple of ads a day. I guess money talks!!

21. listopadu 2009, 10:03:01
Ferris Bueller 
Subjekt: Re: money talks!!
(V):   Unfortunately yes it does.  And it is no way to support the free flow of ideas in a demacracy or a republic.  But, if u suggest any alternative to the "free marketplace" here, u are branded a Socialist or Communists.  It's simply rediculous.

21. listopadu 2009, 13:34:55
(V) 
Subjekt: Re: money talks!!
Ferris Bueller: It's not communist or socialist not to want to have 24/7 political broadcast bombardment... it's called not wanting to have the same rubbish shoved down your throat 24/7!!

If anyone says to you that's not American, then suggest to them they can have your share and sit in a room 24/7 just watching 'important messages'.

Maybe with some chocolate pretzels... bit melted, but still good. If you know your "Mallrats"

22. listopadu 2009, 03:11:42
Czuch 
Subjekt: Re: money talks!!
Ferris Bueller: I agree with Charlie on this one... you have something that works, dont worry about the name, just tell us how it works. If it is better than what we have, we will let you know ;)

17. listopadu 2009, 20:40:20
Artful Dodger 
Subjekt: Re: Rubbish
(V):   It's silly to talk about Palin's clothing as if that's really something that matters.  It doesn't.  It's a ploy of the mindless left to distract.  And the fact that you bring it up shows the shortcomings in your arguments.

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